Iran Attacks Israeli Racism

[P.K.]

Come back LDV all is forgiven, I may not agree with some of your wacky ideas and beliefs but at least you will accept facts when given them and do not possess such a blinkered and bigoted view. BTW nice facts Chinahand but wasted on the person directed at, they are too indoctronated into thier ways.

Or they could be right.

 

Don't fall into the trap that what you think is right absolutely must be...

[Rog]

‘cheeky boy’

 

Just tell me this.

 

If the only thing the other party will accept negotiation on is the date on which you must be driven into the sea and for whom compromise is defeat what the hell is the point in negotiation?

 

LDV writes ----

 

The only people who will end up isolated from this will be the Palestinians, and they would be left isolated from more than just the Israeli state. Where would you expect the boundaries to be drawn?

 

There is not some vast chasm to the East of the disputed territories (though it must be said that Jordan want no truck with the so called ‘Palestinians’ at present and with good reason) and there is an all to active border crossing between Gaza and Egypt, so where’s the isolation?

 

As for the border line, personally I would like it to be the Jordan river to the East but I’m in the minority. Certainly in my book any idea of reverting to the ‘Green Line’ ’47 borders is a non starter, and anything that didn’t include at least a ten mile land strip to the East of Jerusalem would be utterly unacceptable.

 

Now Sabra and Shatila.

 

To understand the situation better it is necessary to look at events that led up to the massacre that took place. It’s also necessary to set straight some facts about these places and just what they were.

 

Let’s start with a little bit of history and the circumstances whereby the Sabra and Shatila camps came into existence.

 

During the ’67 war neighboring Arab states warned non-Israeli citizens to get out of Israel because there was going to be a bloodbath once the Arab states invaded Israel and anyone still there would be considered The Enemy by them.

 

Not unsurprisingly expecting that the Christian Arabs would be good to their word (there has to be a first for all things I guess) they left and many went North into The Lebanon and established a number of camps including Sabra and Shatilla on the outskirts of the predominantly Muslim district of West Beirut.

 

In the event Israel survived the attack and repulsed the invading forces and the PLO, the latter then taking heel to the existing ‘Palestinian’ state, Jordan.

 

Pretty soon King Hussain got pissed off by the antics of the PLO in Jordan and kicked them out, the PLO then moved to Beirut and at least hundreds of heavily armed terrorists installed themselves in these two camps turning them into terrorist bases with lots of human shields.

 

Funny thing about the Arabs, especially the Palestinians, they do so love to wrap women’s and children’s’ clothes around themselves to ward off the bullets. Damm shame they don’t take the women and kids out of the clothes first though.

 

So a situation existed whereby there were two camps containi9ng arms dumps, armed terrorists, and then to make matters worse an uprising took place in The Lebanon between the Christian and Muslim population started by the Muslims. Nothing new there then.

 

So putting aside the detailed reason that the Phylangists came about and leaving it as simply that they were a nationalist movement with virtually universal support from the Maronite Christian population and who were pissed off with Syrian involvement with their country for years, conflict broke out culminating in the murder of Bashir Gemayel, the Lebanese president by the Muslims.

 

At that point it hit the fan.

 

Israel had for a number of years been under attack along its Northern border by PLO forces who were being directed from within Beirut. It was because of this that Israel invaded The Lebanon – and I’m skimming now not to avoid anything but simply for brevity – and established a common purpose agreement with the Phalangyists.

 

As for Sabra and Shatila, the IDF did little more than contain the population within the camps on the basis that the rooting out of the PLO fighters was a thing that was desirable but would have a cost far too high to justify its return. For one thing every single person in the camp would be an enemy to any Israeli and so the offer by the Phalyngists to enter the camps in order to find and neutralize the active PLO fighters together with their weapons was apparently too good to refuse.

 

As the Phalangyists were not immediately ‘the enemy’ to non-PLO camp members the difficulty would be less and a solution that gave the best return for the investment was too good to turn down.

 

What was not expected was the animalistic behaviour of the Phalangysts. It should have been.

 

THAT was the error of judgment.

[Lonan3]

A further 'error of judgement' was that the Maronite Christians were seeking revenge for the assassination of their president, Bachir Gemayel, a couple of days earlier.

Information later revealed that Gemayel was assassinated by the Syrians, who opposed his alliance with the Israelis, and not by the PLO.

[Chinahand]

In my mind Lebanon is where Israel went wrong.

 

Secular, inefficient terrorists, who could, and have been, brought to the peace table through compromise and defeat were replaced by religious zealots, who did not care for the fact their massacres were inefficient as they brought them closer to their ideal of heaven, and who have replaced a limited secular goal with an impossible, millenialist one - freeing the Ummah and ensuring the triumph of Allah.

 

While the west was trying to defeat Iran via a secularist Saddam Hussien - Iran was exporting its philosophy of religious revolution and, through Israel's barbarity in Southern Lebanon, this found fertile ground in Hezbollah.

 

The secular terrorists had been defeated time and time again - but Hezbollah stopped the Israeli war machine in its tracks and left it unable to respond to the suicide bomb.

 

The IDF which had taken Jerusalem in 3 days, stormed the Golan and released the hostages in Entebe was reduced to ever dirtier campaigns - and Hezbollah's grass roots message spread and inspired into the Occupied Territories.

 

The PLO didn't really create the intifada - and though they tried to ride its coat tails it was Hamas and its ilk which, learning from Hezbollah, galvanized their grass roots.

 

After defeat in Lebanon the IDF was then reduced to breaking teenage arms with clubs and stones in some West Bank camp, and now has sunk to sniping at pregnant mothers and using 500 lb bombs on appartment blocks as assassination tools. There is no honour in such soldiering, and its corrosion shows on an army unable to mobilize or act decisively in its recent dirty little wars.

 

You can run many counterfactuals, but one I am most interested in is what if Israel had not sown Hezbollah's rise by its stupidity in Lebanon. Those villages weren't natural enemies - like Jordan they were sick of the PLO. But through tank and artillery and disregard for crop and school the Israelis made them welcome Iran's two faced friendship.

 

I don't see Hezbollah's rise as inevitable and blame much of it on Israel - the secularists in Jordan threw out the PLO and compromised. That could have been Lebanon's path, but Israel's decision to invade created the vacumn into which Iran gained its foothold and the world changed.

 

Jihad, religious zeal overtaking political logic and the suicide bomb were victorious inspiring Hamas and Islamic Zealots everywhere. The genie is out of the bottle - Sharon took the part of Pandora and opened that box.

 

I wish he hadn't, but he did. Lebanon was Israel's nemisis - who will say it was not?

[alibaba]

The magnificent 'Waltz with Bashir' is about Sabra and Shantila. Everyone should see this film.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Rog - I had the impression from what you said that you were advocating creating what Chinahand referred to as Bantustans in the land. Something similar to how the United States and Israel proposed to divide the land up some years ago. All this will do is box in the Palestinians, essential create areas surrouded by Israeli territory, limiting access to resources and limiting freedom of movement.

 

Yet I can see that this is not quite what you propose.

[alibaba]

I'm not too sure why people were so upset about the speech.

Did you read/hear it? There's very little wrong with it.

 

This is the bit that so annoyed 'our' representatives.

 

"Following World War II, they (the UN) resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless on the pretext of Jewish sufferings. And they sent migrants from Europe, the United States, and other parts of the world in order to establish a totally racist government in the occupied Palestine… [Delegates walk out in protest. Applause] And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe… Okay, please. Thank you. And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive, racist regime in Palestine. [Applause]"

 

WHat's so wrong with that? The word 'pretex'? Doesn't look like there's any holocaust denial going on with statements like " And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe…"

 

The whole speech is here, and well worth a read if you ignore the praying bit at the start.

[Rog]

The bit that’s wrong with it is that it conveys a picture of events that is totally distorted and contains downright untruths. The sad thing is that the walk out, as opposed to the delegates not having given the fiasco any validity by attending in the first place, is that so many street Arabs and their rabble rousers will present it as an example of ‘Israeli Influence’ which in fact it was not.

 

But let’s take what the lying little creep had to say.

 

"Following World War II, they (the UN) resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless on the pretext of Jewish sufferings.”

 

No they did not. For one thing there WAS no ‘nation’, the ‘Palestinians’ are an invention of the son of a slum dog, Arafat.

 

… And they sent migrants from Europe, the United States, and other parts of the world in order to establish a totally racist government in the occupied Palestine…

 

No ‘they’ did not. No one was sent as migrants and nor is Israel a racist government in fact significantly less than Pakistan is a racist government.

 

Moreover Israel is not only patently NOT racist but also is a religiously integrated government as is evidenced by the makeup of the Knesset.

 

… [Delegates walk out in protest. Applause] And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe… Okay, please.

 

What a load of twaddle, what’s more dangerous twaddle that people who want to believe WILL believe.

 

Thank you. And in fact in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive, racist regime in Palestine. [Applause]"

 

That’s a laugh in itself unless the lying little creep is referring to the emergence of Hamas and other satellites of al-ikhwān al-muslimūn, The infamous Muslim Brotherhood.

 

Funny how seldom it’s mentioned Ahmadinejad’s involvement in the seizure of the US embassy in Iran in ’79.

 

That creature has, like so many of his kind, once again besmirched the UN by his abuse of it and what it tries to stand for.

 

I’m reminded of what Bibi said regarding Israel and the Mohammedans.

 

He said

 

‘It’s not that the Mohammedans hate The West because of Israel, they hate Israel because 9f The West’

 

and how right he was and still is.

 

The sooner people realise that Islam is an ideology that is the antithesis to Western democracy and is as part of its very imperatives committed not to exist alongside of our nations as an equal but to subvert and dominate us the better.

 

Israel is the bleeding edge of that conflict though now many other fronts are opening up in Europe. Remember Islam is not just another religion, it is a foul ideology invented by a used camel dealer.

 

A used camel dealer incidentally with a taste for terrorism and young girls who took pre-existing religions and did to them what Hitler did to politics and produced a thing with many similarities to Nazism.

 

It should be presented with the same resistance that Nazism was or the out come will be the same, in fact the war against Islam started 1300 years ago and has been varying between boiling and simmering ever since.

[Chinahand]

Rog - you are as obsessed by Pan-Arabism as Nasser was. Two states were created by the UN in resolution 181 - a Jewish one and an Arab one. Don't pretend that didn't happen.

 

Sure Pan-Arabism influenced the identification of the Palistinian Arabs - but the fact is Pan-Arabism is weaker than Nationalism and so Arab identities have been sublimated into Nation States - and an Arab state was created in Palestine.

 

Sure IF Pan-Arabism had been successful and Nasser's unification of Egypt and Syria had expanded throughout the Arab world you can then posit a counter factural of the Palestinian Arabs calling for unification of the occuppied territories into this non-existent union.

 

But believe it or not that isn't a current political issue - the Palistinian Arabs were given a state in 1948 - zionism and pan-arabism have frustrated the formation of that state, but the vast majority of people living under Israeli occupation or seige desire a state of their own and will call it Palistine - that's nationalism for you.

 

Pretending that National desire is a chimera created by Arafat is frankly delusional and of no use whatsoever in pragmatically looking at the motives behind the Intifada etc.

 

Oh and given your holy book I wouldn't go around saying the things you do about Islam - your book is just as nasty and demanding - its all down to how it is interpreted - and you seem happy to interpret it in the exclusive, genocidal demanding way that insists land is God given.

[jimbms]

Chinahand give up it's almost impossible to convince a bigotted racist such as rog

[Rog]

Let’s just ‘do a reset’ on this. There’s factors to be involved and considered that I’m sure many people today simply don’t know about.

 

I absolutely agree that two states were created under UN181, no argument whatsoever, but the Arab state had already been created de facto with the granting of independence to what had been Trans-Jordan by the British, and saw it being renamed Jordan as part of the process.

 

JORDAN is the true ‘Palestinian’ state.

 

This background to this situation is established by Churchill, at the March, 1921 Cairo Conference, brought and delivered a formal British statement which

 

--- establishing a Jewish National Home in Palestine west of the Jordan and a separate Arab entity in Palestine east of the Jordan. Abdullah, if installed in authority in Transjordan, could preside over the creation of such an Arab entity. ---

 

This was accepted at that conference IN SPITE of it in handing over close to 80% of the land which was to have been at least equally divided to the Arabs.

 

Right from the start Transjordan was closed to all Jewish migration and settlement, that in itself contrary to the British promise in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, and a blatant contravention of its Mandatory obligations.

 

The result was that all that was left for the Jewish people to restore their national homeland, a place stolen from them by the Arabs and had led to the Diaspora, was limited to less than a half of what should have been available.

 

The worst and least valuable part at that and comprising of the land to the West of the river Jordan and what today is called the Gaza strip much of which in spite of the efforts of Jewish people immigrating into the region since the end of the 19th. Century remained either desert or malarial swamp.

 

However, and in spite of the area that SHOULD have been included under UN181 not being as a result of the duplicity and chicanery of the British not being the Jewish Office (the crypto Israeli government) accepted the negotiated ‘Green Line’ borders even though the effect was yet more loss of land.

The Arabs did not in spite of the ‘Green Line’ border being a UN binding pronouncement and declared war on what was then Israel.

 

They lost.

 

Being pragmatic as well as recognising that time changes needs in my opinion there are only two viable answers to the situation.

 

One is for the Jewish people to simply give up and start a 21st. century Diaspora, the second is to continue to build the Security Fence separating Israel from the disputed territories. I favour the latter.

 

As for the so called ‘Palestinian’ people, as a nation the ‘Palestinians’ ARE an invention of the arch pig Arafat. To support that claim here’s the text of an interview given to the Trouw (a Dutch Newspaper) in ’77 by one Zahir Muhseine, one of the PLO top brass and leader of the al-Sa’iqa mob.

 

Quote ---

 

‘The Palestinian people does not exist.

 

The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.

 

In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism for tactical reasons.

 

Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem.

However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.’

 

 

Better yet is to see what the liar of all liars Arafat (and that’s a fact, he used the Islamic principles of to the full) had to say in 1970..

 

HIS WORDS ---

 

‘The question of borders doesn't interest us. From the Arab standpoint, we mustn't talk about borders.

Palestine is nothing but a drop in an enormous ocean. Our nation is the Arabic nation that stretches from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea and beyond it..... The P.L.O. is fighting Israel in the name of Pan-Arabism. What you call "Jordan" is nothing more than Palestine.’

 

But all that aside. There is a bottom line and that relates to the suffering of (now) generations of people both Jew and Arab that result from the lies and half truths. Mostly from the Arab side since it is NOT half of one and 50% of the other.

 

Generations of children in Arab villages have been brought up on a diet of lies that would make Hitler blush. Their religion, for all that I hold it in contempt, is used to motivate mothers to send their kids to their deaths as ‘bombs on the hoof’.

 

And to surround the terrorists, many of whom are acting in the mistaken belief that what they are doing is justified, as human shields, as propaganda to be used, and in the belief that if they die in pursuit of promoting Islam they WILL go straight to paradise.

 

Not many Mufti’s or other clerics, those that one would expect to be certain of their fate, take on such ‘duties’ eh?

 

THAT is why I promote the completion of The Fence. Not only to keep the bombers out, not only to stop Jewish vigilantes actions, yes, I accept it happens, but to be literally a cordon sanitaire.

 

A thing behind which there is at least the possibility that education based on reality, on real history and not the garbage that takes place at present, and behind which wounds on BOTH sides will, if not heal, at least have the opportunity to establish scar tissue.

Will it happen?

 

I doubt it. Bloody shame though.

[Rog]

Chinahand give up it's almost impossible to convince a bigotted racist such as rog

 

I would be really interested to read your definition of 'bigotted' and 'raceist'.

 

No, really, I would.

 

And not just 'You, you bastard', but a definition, in your own words please, of what you believce a bigotted peoprson is and what you believe being racist is all about.

,

[jimbms]

Chinahand give up it's almost impossible to convince a bigotted racist such as rog

 

I would be really interested to read your definition of 'bigotted' and 'raceist'.

 

No, really, I would.

 

And not just 'You, you bastard', but a definition, in your own words please, of what you believce a bigotted peoprson is and what you believe being racist is all about.

,

1. Racist.

A person who makes remarks based on racial intolerance i.e. your comment "the ‘Palestinians’ are an invention of the son of a slum dog, Arafat."

A person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others or discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion i.e. your refusal to accept that Palatinians have a

right to be treated EXACTLY equal to any jewish person in Isreal in all ways.

2. Biggot.

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own or a person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. See comment above about Arafat (who btw I believe was right) and other comments in your posts.

P.S. not sure what a raceist or peoprson is not do I know the meaning of believce, please explain.

[Rog]

Racist.

 

A person who makes remarks based on racial intolerance i.e. your comment "the ‘Palestinians’ are an invention of the son of a slum dog, Arafat."

 

But the way that I describe Arafat, though intentionally insulting as I consider him to be the most evil person bar non in the last 500 YEARS, is not racist, nor is it racist to correctly declare that the so called ‘Palestinians’ are an invention of his.

 

A person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others or discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion i.e. your refusal to accept that Palatinians have a right to be treated EXACTLY equal to any jewish person in Isreal in all ways.

 

Bit of a shame that you are unable to define what YOU mean as racist, and had to cut and paste from dictionary definitions.

 

You see this is not a matter of race, it is a matter of both nationality and civil disobedience and civil war.

 

Apart from the unquestionable fact that races differ in strengths (and so by definition weaknesses) one from another which means that the ‘standard’ definition of racism is itself fundamentally flawed in reality a racist is someone who discriminates purely on the basis of race, and not on ability or inclination, surely the real defining issues.

 

It is because of the established conduct of the so called ‘Palestinians’ that it would be beyond foolhardy to extend full equality in all matters to ‘Palestinians’ as to do so based on probabilities themselves based on past and present evidence as well as stated objectives (esp. in the case of Hamas).

 

To do so would result in yet more deaths and injury to Israeli people be they Israeli Arabs, Israeli Christians, or Israeli Jews, or even Israeli Pagans, Atheists, and Agnostics.

 

 

Biggot.

 

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own or a person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked.

 

Bit of a shame once again you were unable to use your own words and had to cut and paste.

 

Maybe it’s because you don’t really understand bigotry and can’t differentiate bigotry from strongly held opinion based on experience and knowledge.

 

Ho hum, never mind, it proves a point, you don’t understand what you write about so your opinions are immediately devalued.

 

See comment above about Arafat (who btw I believe was right) and other comments in your posts.

 

Maybe you would care to enlarge upon what you believe that the arch-pig Arafat was right about?

 

P.S. not sure what a raceist or peoprson is not do I know the meaning of believce, please explain.

 

It’s called a typographical error.

 

A thing easily done when ones hands closely represent a bunch of bananas, or are knotted with arthritis, or as in my case, both!

 

Maybe it’s the same with you in that you have problems with typing Palestinians and end up with ‘Palatinians’, Isreal, and miss the capitalization of the ‘J’ in Jewish.

 

Or maybe I’m just being generous.

[willstain]

It’s called a typographical error.

 

A thing easily done when ones hands closely represent a bunch of bananas, or are knotted with arthritis, or as in my case, both!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you aren't a Mohel!