Are We Properly Preparing Our Young Drivers?

[j2bad]

So you tar everyone with the same brush then?, i'm on "R plates", i'm "young" and I carry passengers

 

I personally knew a couple of people who died in car crashes when I was at school on the island, and many more who were exceptionally lucky to survive unscathed from complete wrecks. All of them had passengers and had passed the test less than a year. I also know a friend from the UK who passed his test when he was at university, shortly afterwards he killed his passenger in an accident due to reckless driving he is now completely screwed up, the 12 months inside did not do him much good either.

 

I applaud your personal responsibility but the law must apply to all, the R plates is in effect a probationary period and once that is over then you can carry passengers, if the result is that one young life is saved then you can't really oppose the logic can you.

[Cambon]

So how exactly is this going to prepare young drivers for the roads?

 

It's not, it's preparing the roads for the young drivers. The objective of either is to make the roads safer for everyone, right?

 

 

So, effectively you are just ranting off-topic. I will humour you anyway.

 

My car (like most) has a computer on board which gives me statistics. It currently says my average speed is 26.8mph, and that is mostly out of town driving. According to your previous posts that is too fast, and you want it lowered. What is the average speed in your car?

 

Bermuda, a small island similar in many ways to IOM but with only around 55,000 inhabitants. They have very good roads. They had a written test long before we did. They have a 35kph speed limit (roughly 21mph) and so far this year they have had 6 road fatalities. How many has IOM had with it's unristricted roads?

 

A quick troll using Jeeves shows UK road statistics. You will quicky find that the majority of UK fatalities are due to not driving to road conditions, not excessive speed. This shows that the problem is poor education about driving to conditions, not speed.

 

Looking elsewhere, our (and the uk driving test that ours is based on) is woefully inadequate.

 

As was stated earlier why bring in new laws when the current ones are not enforced properly?

 

If you think a speed limit is going to stop people doing 100mph, you are sadly deluded. A quick trip to Boxhill, Cat and Fiddle, 5 Mile Road (Jersey early on a Sunday morning), and many other locations across Great Britain, all of which have speed limits, will quickly show you otherwise.

[Slim]

So, effectively you are just ranting off-topic. I will humour you anyway.

 

Not at all, the top is about the preparation of new drivers hitting higher speeds. Reducing the upper limit of those speeds is relevant.

 

My car (like most) has a computer on board which gives me statistics. It currently says my average speed is 26.8mph, and that is mostly out of town driving. According to your previous posts that is too fast, and you want it lowered. What is the average speed in your car?

 

Anecdotal and irrelevant. I'm not talking about only lowering your speed.

 

Bermuda, a small island similar in many ways to IOM but with only around 55,000 inhabitants. They have very good roads. They had a written test long before we did. They have a 35kph speed limit (roughly 21mph) and so far this year they have had 6 road fatalities. How many has IOM had with it's unristricted roads?

 

Awful example. I've worked in Bermuda, I've experienced their roads first hand. They don't have very good roads at all, they have bloody awful roads, they're tiny and twisty. Those bloody awful roads are populated mostly with scooters, as car ownership is restricted, which raises the risks. They've also got an extremely high population density, those 55,000 inhabitants are crammed in 13,000 per km2, which makes those small roads unusually busy. Like I said, I've worked there, the roads even with the low limits are terrifying, and nothing like a like for like comparison to Manx roads.

 

As was stated earlier why bring in new laws when the current ones are not enforced properly?

 

If the current laws are difficult to enforce.

 

If you think a speed limit is going to stop people doing 100mph, you are sadly deluded. A quick trip to Boxhill, Cat and Fiddle, 5 Mile Road (Jersey early on a Sunday morning), and many other locations across Great Britain, all of which have speed limits, will quickly show you otherwise.

 

You're basically suggesting that every other nation on the world has got this wrong then, our small island is the only one that has it right? Are you really that arrogant?

[Nitro]

So you tar everyone with the same brush then?, i'm on "R plates", i'm "young" and I carry passengers

 

I personally knew a couple of people who died in car crashes when I was at school on the island, and many more who were exceptionally lucky to survive unscathed from complete wrecks. All of them had passengers and had passed the test less than a year. I also know a friend from the UK who passed his test when he was at university, shortly afterwards he killed his passenger in an accident due to reckless driving he is now completely screwed up, the 12 months inside did not do him much good either.

 

So did I.

 

I applaud your personal responsibility but the law must apply to all, the R plates is in effect a probationary period and once that is over then you can carry passengers, if the result is that one young life is saved then you can't really oppose the logic can you.

 

Don't want to be applauded though, as you've said laws apply to everyone and good/considerate driving should be expected of everyone.

 

If I take another view and join this debate rather than oppose it, I can see both sides of the coin, Daily I see a lot of R plate drivers and they seem to see another R plate and want to race or i'll be overtaken in a "catch me if you can" style, with their mates waving like clowns, i'm not interested it just makes me laugh. just hope other drivers don't think I associate with idiots such as this, it doesn't bother me if I cannot take passengers for a year, niether does the 50mph limit, only one that would hit me would be a night curphew on R plate drivers, Ie driving between 9pm and 4am for example.

 

But its all got its work arounds, but you have to think, after a year any R plate driver can go over 50mph and carry passengers, it doesn't make it any safer than before, except they don't have to display R plates to warn people of an inexperienced driver!

 

I personally would like to see the driving age raised, possibly more driving training, such as a skid pan etc, to display car control (and how easy it is to lose all car control.), because like many others I passed with very limited knowledge on such things as driving in ice, driving in fog, driving in rain and driving over 40 odd mph.

 

Something scarely basic such as car maintanence would be nice as well, nothing overly complicated just normal checks : lights, tyre pressures, tyre condition, screen wash, PAS fluid (if car has PAS) etc and a simple few words to display the importance of such checks.

[Lost Login]

Bermuda, a small island similar in many ways to IOM but with only around 55,000 inhabitants. They have very good roads. They had a written test long before we did. They have a 35kph speed limit (roughly 21mph) and so far this year they have had 6 road fatalities. How many has IOM had with it's unristricted roads?

 

Awful example. I've worked in Bermuda, I've experienced their roads first hand. They don't have very good roads at all, they have bloody awful roads, they're tiny and twisty. Those bloody awful roads are populated mostly with scooters, as car ownership is restricted, which raises the risks. They've also got an extremely high population density, those 55,000 inhabitants are crammed in 13,000 per km2, which makes those small roads unusually busy. Like I said, I've worked there, the roads even with the low limits are terrifying, and nothing like a like for like comparison to Manx roads.

 

I agree that Bermuda is an awful example to use as a comparison as most of their deaths on the road are from those riding scooters and motorcycles. I also believe there is a different attitide to drinking and driving in Bermuda with some decsribing it as the national sport. Apparently 70% of those dying in fatal accidents in Bermuda under the influence of drink or drugs.

 

We can all pick examples were people have died either not obeying the speed limits, obeying the speed limit or where no speed limit applies so posting the odd example prooves nothing. What I did find interesting where these two statements I found

 

During his presidency, Bill Clinton abolished the requirement that states comply with federally mandated speed limits to receive Federal Highway Subsidies. As a result, in 1995, a number of states increased their highway speed limits by an average of four percent. The result? A 17 percent increase in road deaths.

 

• In 1993, Israel increased the speed limit on its major highway by 11 percent for a one-year trial. The result? A 25 percent increase in road deaths.

 

OK there may have been other factors for the increase but logically you would expect that the greater the speed the higher the number of accidents and fatalities. If we did not generally accept that then why bother with any speed limits, why slow down near schools etc

 

Ultimately as I have said before we can greatly effect the number of accidents etc on the road if we want to. But presently the majoity seem to be more concerned about being able to drive fast or without restriction than road safety

[Cambon]

Bermuda, a small island similar in many ways to IOM but with only around 55,000 inhabitants. They have very good roads. They had a written test long before we did. They have a 35kph speed limit (roughly 21mph) and so far this year they have had 6 road fatalities. How many has IOM had with it's unristricted roads?

 

Awful example. I've worked in Bermuda, I've experienced their roads first hand. They don't have very good roads at all, they have bloody awful roads, they're tiny and twisty. Those bloody awful roads are populated mostly with scooters, as car ownership is restricted, which raises the risks. They've also got an extremely high population density, those 55,000 inhabitants are crammed in 13,000 per km2, which makes those small roads unusually busy. Like I said, I've worked there, the roads even with the low limits are terrifying, and nothing like a like for like comparison to Manx roads.

 

 

Now you are starting to talk out of your arse. The roads over there are very similar to here, except you don't feel sea sick after 10 minutes driving because they are smooth. Yes, they have an higher population density, but since the working population is spread much more evenly over the island, the density of traffic is also spread out, rather than here where the majority all head to the same place every day to work, making Douglas at least as conjested during rush hours as Hamilton, if not more.

 

After your moan about the Mountain on Sunday, it is amusing to here you rant about terrifying roads with 20mph speed limits.

[Slim]

Now you are starting to talk out of your arse. The roads over there are very similar to here, except you don't feel sea sick after 10 minutes driving because they are smooth. Yes, they have an higher population density, but since the working population is spread much more evenly over the island, the density of traffic is also spread out, rather than here where the majority all head to the same place every day to work, making Douglas at least as conjested during rush hours as Hamilton, if not more.

 

After your moan about the Mountain on Sunday, it is amusing to here you rant about terrifying roads with 20mph speed limits.

 

If you've been there, you're viewing them with rose tinted specs. They're extremely narrow, very windy, there's virtually no opportunity to overtake, but the scooters do anyway. Just google 'bermuda roads' and remind yourself how bad they are.

 

I think it's a poor comparison, the manx roads are better compared to rural English roads which have similar vehicles, similar population densities and, other than the speed limits, similar laws.

[Cambon]

If you've been there, you're viewing them with rose tinted specs. They're extremely narrow, very windy, there's virtually no opportunity to overtake, but the scooters do anyway. Just google 'bermuda roads' and remind yourself how bad they are.

 

I think it's a poor comparison, the manx roads are better compared to rural English roads which have similar vehicles, similar population densities and, other than the speed limits, similar laws.

 

Slim, I first visited BDA in 1964, then 66. I moved there in 68-81. I then visited in 83, 87, 91, 92, 93, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 01, and most recently 07. I have family who live there and my mother used to work on the Road Safety Council. Bermuda has and has since the late 1970s had a big problem with the attitude on the roads caused by a lack of law enforcement, exactly as we have here. That is the problem with Bermudas roads.

 

In answer to your first point, Bermuda has many narrow, winding roads just as the IOM. It also has some long wide straight roads, just like the IOM. When I was a lad living there I used to race my friends on the roads, and make attempts to see how fast we could go, just as the kids do over here and always have. That is not the roads fault, nor the fault of a national speed limit, it is simply attitude. That is what needs to be changed. Someone earlier talked about drink driving being a Bermudian national sport. That is a bit unfair, but when the law is not enforced what do you expect?

[Slim]

Bermuda has and has since the late 1970s had a big problem with the attitude on the roads caused by a lack of law enforcement, exactly as we have here. That is the problem with Bermudas roads.

 

In answer to your first point, Bermuda has many narrow, winding roads just as the IOM. It also has some long wide straight roads, just like the IOM. When I was a lad living there I used to race my friends on the roads, and make attempts to see how fast we could go, just as the kids do over here and always have. That is not the roads fault, nor the fault of a national speed limit, it is simply attitude. That is what needs to be changed. Someone earlier talked about drink driving being a Bermudian national sport. That is a bit unfair, but when the law is not enforced what do you expect?

 

Enforcement is one problem in Bermuda, not the whole problem. There's no road on Bermuda, that I've seen, that's like the mountain road, or like ballamodha. If you've seen one, please name it. I'm certain you've never gone over 100mph on Bermudas roads, it's virtually impossible.

 

I don't think a national speed limit is the only answer to reducing road fatalities, but I do think it will help reduce the risks.

[Cambon]

Enforcement is one problem in Bermuda, not the whole problem. There's no road on Bermuda, that I've seen, that's like the mountain road, or like ballamodha. If you've seen one, please name it. I'm certain you've never gone over 100mph on Bermudas roads, it's virtually impossible.

There are actually several places where the local kids race. There is a stretch known locally as "Freezer Fresh to Palm", runs from Point Finger Road to the bottom of Collectors hill. Is a couple of miles of virtually straight road. Another is Kindley Field road, incorporating Stone Crusher Corner (runs past the airport). The Police used to hang there so you would leave a few mates as lookouts. McGalls Hill is another favourite for getting up some serious speed. There are several others, but of course you should know this having "worked" there.

 

Personally, I don't think I did 100+ in Bermuda. I know plenty of people who have though. The low speed limit only goes to fuel the petrol heads and youth. On the old US air base they do organised motorcycle racing, everything from mopeds (virtually) to 600cc. The have even had a couple of racing fatalities. On top of this, the tuning of cars is big business over there. You may see some of them going along looking like some sort of pimp mobile, but believe me, under the hood is often found some astounding mods.

[Slim]

There are actually several places where the local kids race. There is a stretch known locally as "Freezer Fresh to Palm", runs from Point Finger Road to the bottom of Collectors hill. Is a couple of miles of virtually straight road. Another is Kindley Field road, incorporating Stone Crusher Corner (runs past the airport). The Police used to hang there so you would leave a few mates as lookouts. McGalls Hill is another favourite for getting up some serious speed. There are several others, but of course you should know this having "worked" there.

 

No point continuing with this Cambon, I've made my point. Bermuda is a shit comparrision, it's got car limit restrictions, it's got very low speed limits, it's got scooters everywhere, it's got tiny roads, it's got rampant drink driving and a high number of tourists who've never touched a scooter before visiting, and they've got a famously low level of traffic police and it isn't a famous road racing circuit. It's what, 2 miles wide at it's widest point? It's not really like here.

 

I'm also not advocating such low limits, so I really don't see the relevance of their shit safety record.

[gazza]

I'm also not advocating such low limits, so I really don't see the relevance of their shit safety record.

 

but u said if there was a speed limit, there would be less deaths, so here we have a place with low speed limits,

[Lost Login]

I'm also not advocating such low limits, so I really don't see the relevance of their shit safety record.

 

but u said if there was a speed limit, there would be less deaths, so here we have a place with low speed limits,

 

In support of slim I repeat the following.

 

During his presidency, Bill Clinton abolished the requirement that states comply with federally mandated speed limits to receive Federal Highway Subsidies. As a result, in 1995, a number of states increased their highway speed limits by an average of four percent. The result? A 17 percent increase in road deaths.

 

• In 1993, Israel increased the speed limit on its major highway by 11 percent for a one-year trial. The result? A 25 percent increase in road deaths.

 

It does look like a decrease will reduce the number of deaths.

 

In respect of the rather daft Bermuda example as it is like comparing apples to pears presumably those who are advocating that speed has no effect would not expect the number of fatalities to increase in Bermuda if they abolosished the speed limits. If that is the case howcome in the IoM there appear to be more road fatalities out of town than intown. It might not by chance be because vehicles are travelling slower in towns

[gazza]

It does look like a decrease will reduce the number of deaths.

 

In respect of the rather daft Bermuda example as it is like comparing apples to pears presumably those who are advocating that speed has no effect would not expect the number of fatalities to increase in Bermuda if they abolosished the speed limits. If that is the case howcome in the IoM there appear to be more road fatalities out of town than intown. It might not by chance be because vehicles are travelling slower in towns

 

2 be honest the only figures i would use to see how it would be effected, would be ireland, as here roads are as close as you will get to the isle of mans roads,

 

the fact there is more out of town, might not just be because of linits, the fact theres less traffic might be most of it,

[Lost Login]

I do not really care about the reason behind it rather the fact that slower speeds appear to result in less fatalities all other conditions basically being the same. some on here seem to argue that there is no link.

 

Now because of that I do not advocate that we should all drive around at 20mph. Equally I do not advocate no limits and a potential large increase. There is a balance to be struck in the middle, where that balance is is debatable.

 

Now ideally we would all drive carefully, resonsably, obeying all laws, have consideration for others, not racing around etc etc. Unfortunatly that is not the real world. I believe limits have a roll in trying to rectify that including an uppper limit on the mountain road. That might inconvenience a minority but just as a matter of road safety I am not sure that I am comfortable at two cars doing a 100mph plus passing each other seperated only by a lick of paint. I also think that the disparity in speed of somebody doing a 100+ and somebody else on the sam road doing or less is too great. If you are doing 110 and a van or lorry is doing 50 or less that is almost like coming towards the back of a stionaery queue of traffic on a A Raod or Motorway in the UK. I do not think that in terms of road safety it is particularly wise.

 

At least on other deristricted roads in other developed countries there is a reasonable expectation most other vehicles are also moving fairly quickly, there are no major corners or entrances onto the road and you are seperated by the armco from oncoming traffic. Until we build those into the mountain road there should be some restriction whether it be 50, 100 or whatever

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the fact there is more out of town, might not just be because of linits, the fact theres less traffic might be most of it,