La_Dolce_Vita Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Jimbms - You are right, don't disagree, we have more freedoms than we otherwise would. But you are missing the point of what I am saying, unless I haven't put it clearly. Bananaman - Not sure what you are getting angry at here, whether it is the idea that you think I should perceive any soldiers or people who fight as heroes or whether you refer to those who fought in WW2. All I am saying is that when people speak of WW1 and WW2 dead as heroes it is often said as this all encompassing term for ALL those who have fought and died in these wars. In WW2, many have carried out acts of courage, and such acts are admired. But hero is a term too imbued with meaning of pure admiration, nobility and often maybe honour. And actually you are right Bananaman, it is a word that partly refers to the victors. Do you consider the nazi soldiers or kamikazi pilots heroes? Vinniek - I wasn't being disingenuous at all about how I think about this! Disgusted by the idea of conformity? I would say I am disgusted at the reasons for many aspects of conformity and often the impact it has, but only some aspects of conformity. As you have pointed out there are many areas where I am conformist and need to be so. (Though I don't particularly know what aspects you are remarking on,) my conformism may be blind you should explain how, but I don't think and hope it was not rigid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Personally I think the situation overwhelmed Jones and he completely lost it. Personally, I think the sound of his own voice overwhelmed the armchair warrior, and he completely lost it. Sadly, no cigar. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 They put up with terrible things, and when it was over, they just came back (most of them) and quietly got on with rebuilding a shattered country. Whether conscripts or volunteers, they all risked their lives, and many gave their lives. As a result, one of the most evil regimes the world has ever seen was destroyed. If Britain and its allies had not prevailed, you and I and most other people on this forum would either never have existed, or be leading very different, and much worse, lives. Quite right, I absolutely agree. Yes, the allied soldiers, airmen and seaman did defeat that regime, but that is not what I am getting at. I am talking about how they are understood as heroes. Britain never entered the war for any noble reasons. And the term hero evokes sentiments such as nobility, courage, and a worthy cause. For me, it glosses over the value of their lives, though it is not as offensive as someone referring to WW1 soldiers as heroes. Many WWI soldiers were certainly heroes. At one time, the life expectancy of a subaltern at the front was two weeks. Think of the courage required to get up each day and face the near certainty that you would be dead in a fortnight, and still find it in you to lead and encourage your men. Whether the war was right or wrong has no bearing on the actions of those in the middle of it. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 So what makes someone a hero? These men had little choice about how they would conduct themselves in WW1. Yes it took courage to 'go over the top', but don't we completely ignore something crucial when we think what the consequences would have been to NOT follow orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaman Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 So you believe that displays of courage mark men out as heroes, that is how you define it? It isn't how I understand the term, unless my understanding of its definition is wrong. These men had little choice about how they would conduct themselves in WW1. Yes it took courage to 'go over the top', but don't we completely ignore something crucial when we think what the consequences would have been to NOT follow orders. Are you really that shallow and pathetic that you have to reply like this? What are your aims here? They're certainly not valid points to an argument about a scaremongering and a mainly ineffectual political party. All I can read out of this is that you are saying that those that died in both World Wars were cowards because the obeyed orders! I have a Great Uncle buried at Durnbach http://tinyurl.com/kldtmb Un-able to afford to go there yet. One day I will. Why the hatred of alive players of wars past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 What are your aims here? They're certainly not valid points to an argument about a scaremongering and a mainly ineffectual political party. I only mentioned one of the criticisms of that BNP video which I tried to list and then you got cross about what I said. I just dislike the use of a subjective term that I feel ignores the costs, as opposed to the benefits, of their loss of life, especially in consideration of the constraints to their freedom. And who are the heroes and who are not? All I can read out of this is that you are saying that those that died in both World Wars were cowards because the obeyed orders!Why the hatred of alive players of wars past? Cowards - no, I am highlighting their lack of choices which when considered make heroism a rather bizarrre term to use. Hatred??? Never said I hated them, why would I say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted May 29, 2009 Author Share Posted May 29, 2009 Jews in the camps were identified by a yellow star sewn,a perversion of the Jewish Star of David symbol.After 1939 and with some variation from camp to camp, the categories of prisoners were easily identified by a marking system combining a colored inverted triangle with lettering. The badges sewn onto prisoner uniforms enabled SS guards to identify the alleged grounds for incarceration. Criminals were marked with green inverted triangles, Political prisoners with red, "asocials" (including Roma, nonconformists, vagrants, and other groups) with black or--in the case of Roma in some camps--brown triangles. Homosexuals were identified with pink triangles. Jehovah's Witnesses with purple ones. Non-German prisoners were identified by the first letter of the German name for their home country, which was sewn onto their badge. The two triangles forming the Jewish star badge would both be yellow unless the Jewish prisoner was included in one of the other prisoner categories. A Jewish political prisoner, for example, would be identified with a yellow triangle beneath a red triangle. (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005378) Which variation would you have been wearing? Think about that the next time you walk past a war memorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Personally I think the situation overwhelmed Jones and he completely lost it. Personally, I think the sound of his own voice overwhelmed the armchair warrior, and he completely lost it. Sadly, no cigar. S Oh dear Mr "pub bore" Sebrof, so yet again Wiki has failed to provide you with anything sensible to say. Maybe you should garner your "facts" from another source in future. Tell you what, here's a little tip to help you on your way - mark those who clearly know what they are talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 These men had little choice about how they would conduct themselves in WW1. Yes it took courage to 'go over the top', but don't we completely ignore something crucial when we think what the consequences would have been to NOT follow orders. The excellent "Paths of Glory" is worth watching. Or as Voltaire put it in Candide - "pour encourager les autres". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 The excellent "Paths of Glory" is worth watching. Or as Voltaire put it in Candide - "pour encourager les autres". Oooh that 'Paths of Glory' looks very interesting! Interesting how so many French soldiers mutinied in that war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Oooh that 'Paths of Glory' looks very interesting! Interesting how so many French soldiers mutinied in that war. But a number somewhat dwarfed by the (approximately) 1,385,000 French soldiers who were killed and the 4,266,000 who were wounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 But a number somewhat dwarfed by the (approximately) 1,385,000 French soldiers who were killed and the 4,266,000 who were wounded. You are right, such a saddening waste of life. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...es-1690406.html BlueMonday - the above link relates to what you were saying about the BNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted May 29, 2009 Author Share Posted May 29, 2009 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...es-1690406.html BlueMonday - the above link relates to what you were saying about the BNP. Headline is incorrect BNP attracts more clicks than all other major parties BNP attracts more pricks than all other major parties Fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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