Armed Forces Day

[La_Dolce_Vita]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8147034.stm

 

LDV these guys have paid the ultimate price, IMO they should be remembered whether or not it fits into your opinion of how the world should be.

 

Yes, you are completely right. They should be remembered. Their lives were wasted, and some were ONLY 18 YEARS OLD.

Of course those who have died in combat should be remembered. I have no problem with that. If you think I did, then I think you completely missed everything I have said about this Armed Forces Day.

[P.K.]

Errr, well, soldiering is a young man's game you know.

 

I don't think their lives were wasted. If we don't push the Taliban back in Afghanistan then Al Qaida will be back. Then there will be even more attempts to destabilise Pakistan - a nuclear power - than currently. If it turns to open conflict then it could end up just about anywhere.

 

Besides which if there's going to be a Third World War then the The Third World is definitely the place to hold it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Errr, well, soldiering is a young man's game you know.

 

Oh yeah, it is. But when people are being killed at 18 years old (for me) it demonstrates something very wrong about the way things are, specifically in respect of how easily young people throw away their lives for such causes and why do not criticise it.

 

I don't think their lives were wasted. If we don't push the Taliban back in Afghanistan then Al Qaida will be back. Then there will be even more attempts to destabilise Pakistan - a nuclear power - than currently. If it turns to open conflict then it could end up just about anywhere.

 

But such instability has largely been caused by the role of the U.S. and British troops in Afghanistan. It is our own doing and as with Iraq the British public will no reap the rich rewards with continued terrorist attacks.

 

It is the governments and political order of the world that has partly generated the form of terrorism we see with Al Qaeda. The soldiers are just trying to clean up the shit as much as they can - by removing those committing terrorism at present and helping setting up regimes more compliant with US and British foreign policy.

 

All in all, a waste of life. Very sad.

 

Besides which if there's going to be a Third World War then the The Third World is definitely the place to hold it.

 

Terrorism of this form is a product of the circumstances that create a Third World.

[P.K.]

You sign up, particularly in the "professional" regiments, in the frank expectation of getting in the shit. And why you're there is meaningless to you, the fact you are there is what matters. As to your "morally indefensible" bollocks if you can't take a joke then you shouldn't have joined. Simple as.

 

It would appear that there are still fools around who can't grasp the simple concept that in some parts of the world like Afghanistan, Iraq (as was), Darfur etc etc power comes from the barrel of a gun. Now war is a nasty, dirty, miserable business but as the only way to end wars is to have them some of those who signed up to do your killing for you come home in a coffin to a devastated family. It's very sad but it is what it is.

[Celt]

If you think I did, then I think you completely missed everything I have said about this Armed Forces Day.

 

I don't think the meaning behind your drivel and pubic rantings was missed by anyone.

 

People forget the people in the Armed Forces as they, and we, go about our everyday jobs. It's human nature to forget what isn't in front of us everyday.

 

Imo, the Armed Forces day was put in place to remind the people that these guys and girls are putting their lives on the line for us, their m8s and the people on the ground because the Government asked them to.

 

But heres a few fact about a people who didn't do it becuase they had to, just becuase they thought it was right.

 

WW1.

 

The Isle of Man had more people sign up than any other country in the British Empire, per head par capita.

 

The Manx Fleet, due to it's contrubution to the war effort, was given the Honour of leading the surrendered German Fleet into Scarpa Flow.

 

If you want to know the cost, look at the War Memorail in Douglas and think how small the population of the Island was at the time.

 

You'll also see my Great Uncle who fell at Loos.

 

WW2.

 

Again the Isle of Man had more people sign up than any other country in the Commonwealth, per head per capita.

 

Again the Manx Fleet held it's head high. They took more men of Dunkirk beaches than whole RN and other Merchant ships combined. Over 126,000 i think.

 

There was only Conscription in WW2 and that was for 21 yrs of age to begin with yet many more still went. My father was only 17 in 1939, so lied about his age and joined up. As did many others.

 

So them facts, would imo, make some off your aguments that they do if for the Government, look a bit thin.

 

Still to this day, people from the Island go off to war, as they have in all the Conflicts started by or along side troops, of the UK Government.

 

I for one, would pat them on the back and say thank you.

 

I think that if ever the day comes where the enemy knock on your door, you'll be hiding behind the sofa.

 

The Manx people have and still continue to, " Do Our Bit "

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You sign up, particularly in the "professional" regiments, in the frank expectation of getting in the shit. And why you're there is meaningless to you, the fact you are there is what matters. As to your "morally indefensible" bollocks if you can't take a joke then you shouldn't have joined. Simple as.

 

It would appear that there are still fools around who can't grasp the simple concept that in some parts of the world like Afghanistan, Iraq (as was), Darfur etc etc power comes from the barrel of a gun. Now war is a nasty, dirty, miserable business but as the only way to end wars is to have them some of those who signed up to do your killing for you come home in a coffin to a devastated family. It's very sad but it is what it is.

 

It is what it is, but to not recognise why these forms of conflicts happen and just go for this idea that conflict is inevitable is exactly where the problem lies.

[John]

LDV, IMO you actually have no idea what your talking about and just cut and paste from various wikki type websites...

 

The instability is caused by a large number of factors, you can not blame UK troops.

 

As was said earlier, do you fully understand the politic hotbed that is that area, if more radical groups such as Al Qaida where to gain a foothold in the likes of Pakistan, the consequences would affect all off us, so really please stop spouting about a subject that you have only ever experienced from the back of a fag packet or the latest wikki that you have read.

[P.K.]

LDV, IMO you actually have no idea what your talking about and just cut and paste from various wikki type websites...

I disagree with this. Also LDV is always unfailingly polite, a rarity on here.

[immortalpuppet]

WW2. Stuff

 

The Manx people have and still continue to, " Do Our Bit "

 

15th RA The Manx Air defence regiment shot down the most ememy aircraft during the war.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't think the meaning behind your drivel and pubic rantings was missed by anyone.

 

From reading this post, I can see it really has! Maybe I should just give in, maybe I am not capable of putting across a rather simply point without it being completely misunderstood. Although I do think that the issue of the Armed Forces is one where people might be too ready to shut off their minds and work on what they understand (or misunderstand) from propaganda, the mass media, and ideas about government.

 

People forget the people in the Armed Forces as they, and we, go about our everyday jobs. It's human nature to forget what isn't in front of us everyday.

 

Imo, the Armed Forces day was put in place to remind the people that these guys and girls are putting their lives on the line for us, their m8s and the people on the ground because the Government asked them to.

 

But heres a few fact about a people who didn't do it becuase they had to, just becuase they thought it was right.

 

I have said it time and time again. If someone decides to sacrifice their life under the mistaken idea that it is for the purpose of protecting me, when in fact their role is simply to do the bidding of a government that serves the interests of a small minority in the country, then what should I be grateful for?

 

It is not my fault that people are indoctrinated to the extent where they would really believe they are doing good, when in fact their ultimate role is a bad one and doesn't make the world a better place.

 

Does it really matter what the people in the forces think is right? If I went out and shot a lot of people in Douglas because I thought I was doing right and was for the good of the people of the Isle of Man, do I deserve a pat on the back? What point are you trying to make?

 

I aware of what happened in WW1 and WW2. In WW1 the people thought it was their duty to serve their King and country (i.e. the State). So what? Do I celebrate the terrible consequence of an unfortunate understanding that comes from indoctrination and national identity?

 

Besides, I don't know why you give a history on WW1 and WW2. I know they were brave, braver than me, and did things that I could never do, often without choice. But I don't the relevance of this. It isn't something to be celebrated when people give their lives for their government. How the fuck can you celebrate and be proud of WW1?

 

In none of what I have wrote have I ever remarked that the people in the forces consciously believe that they join the forces with the idea of doing the government's work. Although that is the reality of what they really do. And the government is not the same as the people. Therefore, in serving the government's foreign policy, you do not necessarily serve the people.

 

 

I think that if ever the day comes where the enemy knock on your door, you'll be hiding behind the sofa.

 

The Manx people have and still continue to, " Do Our Bit "

 

'If an enemy came to my door'? Who is the enemy?

 

Anyway, to summarise:

 

Veterans Day: remembering those who have died - a good thing

 

Armed Forces Day: remembering those who have died AND celebrating what the armed forces have done throughout history; what they continue to do; celebrating the existence of this State institution and what is signifies; supporting the form of government that we have and what it does; and being patriotic and jingoistic - a bad thing.

[Irwezsh]

Anyway, to summarise:

 

Veterans Day: remembering those who have died - a good thing

 

Armed Forces Day: remembering those who have died AND celebrating what the armed forces have done throughout history; what they continue to do; celebrating the existence of this State institution and what is signifies; supporting the form of government that we have and what it does; and being patriotic and jingoistic - a bad thing.

 

 

Sir; sometimes a think you talk complete rubbish. (As we should do for good debate.) Yet with that I almost completely agree with you. I have been to many a Veterans Day, I was planning to go this year. Yet for the reasons you state here I won't be attending this year. Something which makes me feel awfully sad.

 

Something I will add is that Veterans day was in a large part about giving support to the people who have served in the past. Not what they fought for just the actual people.

[Celt]

t is not my fault that people are indoctrinated to the extent where they would really believe they are doing good

 

I think that shows what little faith and understanding about most people in the British Isles and their freedom of choice, you have.

 

I personally think the only person here who seem indoctrinated is you.

 

 

Not what they fought for just the actual people.

 

 

Imo, what Armed Forces Day is about. Not the highjacking by the UK that LDV is going on about. Most people can see straight through any shoite the UK government want to spin. I think it was put in place not for which cuase they fight for but for the person.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think that shows what little faith and understanding about most people in the British Isles and their freedom of choice, you have.

 

Faith? What are you referring to? I think that you lack understanding when you start referring to the issue of freedom of choice. The armed forces do not exist and perform to maintain some freedom of choice, what limited freedom of choice people have is maintained as something limited by the existence of government apparatus that includes the armed forces.

 

I personally think the only person here who seem indoctrinated is you.

 

Possibly, I may have indoctrinate myself. However, I reached the opinions I have by criticising the existing conventional ideas that the public are indoctrinated into and then have given much thought to what is actually going on.

 

Imo, what Armed Forces Day is about. Not the highjacking by the UK that LDV is going on about. Most people can see straight through any shoite the UK government want to spin. I think it was put in place not for which cuase they fight for but for the person.

 

Then I think you are being incredibly naive in understanding what AFD means. A quick look at the Home page of the website demonstrates a great way about the perspectives and beliefs that the government wishes to have about the forces, how they are seen, and what people should. The patriotic aspect is hard to miss. The need to support troops no matter what conflict they are in and celebrate their causes no matter what is all set down on that webpage. That isn't there by accident.

 

You do recognise that in altering Veteran's Day to Armed Forces Day what sort of thought processes have gone on? And what the current political attitudes are towards the armed forces given their role in Iraq and Afghanistan? You do also recognise the Labour agenda of trying to instill patriotism in the populace - just have a look at some of the measures that Gordon Brown has tried to introduce.

 

All in all it is actually a disgusting and shameful attempt to exploit the deaths and suffering caused by government decisions.

[Bananaman]

All in all it is actually a disgusting and shameful attempt to exploit the deaths and suffering caused by government decisions.

 

 

You have an anarchist mate, down your local, that you really don't listen to properly and then try and quote that person on these forums don't you?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

All in all it is actually a disgusting and shameful attempt to exploit the deaths and suffering caused by government decisions.

 

 

You have an anarchist mate, down your local, that you really don't listen to properly and then try and quote that person on these forums don't you?

 

What is that supposed to mean that I haven't listened to someone properly? Why, what would the anarchist say?

 

Besides, if it were true it would be no more different than the public supporting armed forces day on the back of being forcefed nonsense about them, such as the background to this day.