jimbms Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 What a stupid thing to say, why do I need to go and speak to a serviceman? The answer is obvious, how can you spout the shit you do without listening to all sides and I would say talking to an active serviceman or an ex one is a pretty important view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Why? Because their role deserves no 'pat on the back'. I am not saying that the men/women of the armed forces do not work hard and not saying that there are a classification of duties that fall under what can be termed 'benign', e.g. disaster relief. But I don't give people a 'pat on the back' for work that actually makes the world worse, oppresses other people, involves killing - including those of innocents, and furthers the government and elites agenda. Do, for example, US troops deserve a 'pat on the back' for their role in reducing large areas of Fallujah to rubble? Does the warplane pilot deserve a 'pat on the back' for accidentally bombing some civilians? This is the problem I see with your perspective because you, like many, want to create distinctions between the tasks that the forces are called upon to carry out and their overall job. But the overall job comprises of these tasks. This isn't about criticising what government gets into power but recognising that the military is a tool to be used by ALL governments for their interest, not the interests of the people. Forget the US troops, they are a whole different discussion and nothing to do with the British armed forces. Your whole rant seems to be focused on conflicts that you dont agree with or the government have dropped the ball on a few times. How about that large proportion of the services that is currently serving but has not been to Afgan or Iraq? They dont deserve respect? UN peacekeeping duties, disaster relief, domestic anti terrorism, mountain rescue,NATO/ARRC duties, training other countries, Pirate slapping, fighting the drug trade...... just a sample of what the armed forces are involved in which is making the world a better place, its not all about afgan. I asked one of my serving mates to look at this thread and he just pissed himself laughing and said it did not even justify a responce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 LDV, Have you been watching the mini series on BBC 'Occupation' if not there is a part just after the London bombings and the guy that has just returned fron Iraq mentions he is glad it happened - just to shut up is sister who is always on peace rallies. It,s a fucking TV drama. You can't use that to support your argument. "Oh my doctor's wrong, the GP in Peak Practice treated that condition differently" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Forget the US troops, they are a whole different discussion and nothing to do with the British armed forces. Not at all. The same applies to the US troops. Why should Americans support their troops and honour their armed forces? Why, do you think the British armed forces of a different quality and purpose to their American counterparts? Your whole rant seems to be focused on conflicts that you dont agree with or the government have dropped the ball on a few times. How about that large proportion of the services that is currently serving but has not been to Afgan or Iraq? They dont deserve respect? It would help if I knew what you meant by respect. If you mean some form of deference or special form of acknowledgement then absolutely not. I still don't think you understand what I am getting at but I can only assume that is because you believe that the role of the armed forces is ultimately a good thing. I think I have explained myself well enough in making the point that it is the purpose of the armed forces as a whole and historically and also that the armed forces do not serve the ordinary people but the government and elites that leads to why we should not support the armed forces. I only made mention of some controversial conflicts (and can mention many more) to highlight the point that if you support the forces you support these wars and conflicts. You can't pick and choose. And it also means you support the government's foreign policy and the people who it serves. Supporting the armed forces means supporting what they do. Otherwise it is a meaningless word. UN peacekeeping duties, disaster relief, domestic anti terrorism, mountain rescue,NATO/ARRC duties, training other countries, Pirate slapping, fighting the drug trade...... just a sample of what the armed forces are involved in which is making the world a better place, its not all about afgan. Already mentioned that some tasks are classed as benign. Diaster relief and mountain relief are good tasks - though other organisations can be created to undertake these tasks. It is worthwhile being more objective about peacekeeping and terrorism. Peacekeeping often takes place to prevent OTHER national armed forces from fighting against each other. And the growth of terrorism owes its existence largely to the role of oppressive regimes and economic situation of the people involved. And operations in Iraq and in Afghanistan have already been noted to have increased the incidence of terrorism, not lessened it. But again, all of this is not relevant as the issue is to evaluate the armed forces as a whole. The British armed forces, intelligence services, and police are government organisations that exist to clean up the mess that government makes. Their existence and the existence of the State as a whole is why there are problems. They don't make the world a better place at all. I asked one of my serving mates to look at this thread and he just pissed himself laughing and said it did not even justify a responce. Really? Well it is clear you thought it is justified a response, but not a very good one! It matters not whether a serviceman is doing some 'humanitarian' tasks somewhere, doing disaster relief somewhere else, etc. He is not necessarily better placed to understand this issue. As I keep repeating, this is about supporting the institution and all that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 LDV - there really is no point in dealing with the numerous misconceptions you reveal you hold - you really do live on Planet La-La where everything and everyone are just as you think they ought to be and if they're not they (and not you) are wrong. Funnily enough, it is the people who hold your liberal views who bring about so much of the trouble in the world. If you want a thorough and devastating critique of your attitudes read John Gray's essay Modus Vivendi - he puts it so much better than I ever could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 That's rubbish. If it can be explained how I am wrong in my thinking on this then I wait for someone to explain how. The only way I can assume that you think that I believe I am infallible is because I am arguing against somewhat conventional views. Funnily enough I am in no way a liberal? What is liberal about what I have said. I can probably understand your arguments, you don't need to explain them as well as there are put in this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 He is not necessarily better placed to understand this issue. Dog shit, how can someone carrying out the job you are questioning not be best placed to understand and pass comment, you are an armchair critic that does not have anything other than the net or some history books to support your view. I cant be arsed anymore. Its the same old tosh you come out with and its boring I will leave you with your thoughts and I will be celebrating armed forces day by polishing my medals and showing them off, not to mention getting arseholed drunk (any excuse really.). Lets hope I bump into some people that share your views who I can have a chat with in person rather than on the intarweb, not likley though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 That's rubbish. If it can be explained how I am wrong in my thinking on this then I wait for someone to explain how. The only way I can assume that you think that I believe I am infallible is because I am arguing against somewhat conventional views. Funnily enough I am in no way a liberal? What is liberal about what I have said. I can probably understand your arguments, you don't need to explain them as well as there are put in this book. First of all, Modus Vivendi is not a book, it is an essay. Whilst you really should take the trouble to read it suffice it to say that you espouse the liberal humanist idea that there is only one ideal way for mankind to live and that is your way. This misconception lies behind so many conflicts. The fact is that there are many ways in which humankind can live and they can be very different. If you really want a more peaceful world you will need to recognise that those who espouse different views on ways of life which differ from your own can actually be equally "as right" as you are. i.e. in an odd way you are intolerant. So, LDV, before making comments such as rubbish I suggest you first take the trouble to find out what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Dog shit, how can someone carrying out the job you are questioning not be best placed to understand and pass comment, you are an armchair critic that does not have anything other than the net or some history books to support your view. Because, as I keep saying, the issue is not about what servicemen are doing in their daily tasks. They are not necessarily best placed to be an authority on the overall role they serve and who they serve which is fundamental to questions of support and honour. I am not dismissing their perspective, but it isn't what I am getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Goblin Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Puppet - don't be too hard on LDV. He has clearly led a very sheltered life and does not actually understand the complexities of the real world. One day, hopefully, he will venture off his own little planet and grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Because, as I keep saying, the issue is not about what servicemen are doing in their daily tasks. But that is whats being celebrated by armed forces day, YOUR issue may be different but that no suprise as i dont even think you know what you are on about half the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 First of all, Modus Vivendi is not a book, it is an essay. Whilst you really should take the trouble to read it suffice it to say that you espouse the liberal humanist idea that there is only one ideal way for mankind to live and that is your way. This misconception lies behind so many conflicts. The fact is that there are many ways in which humankind can live and they can be very different. If you really want a more peaceful world you will need to recognise that those who espouse different views on ways of life which differ from your own can actually be equally "as right" as you are. i.e. in an odd way you are intolerant. Explain how I made prescriptions for ways in which people should live? It isn't liberalism where my views originate from. I will take the time, however, to read John Gray. Puppet - don't be too hard on LDV. He has clearly led a very sheltered life and does not actually understand the complexities of the real world. One day, hopefully, he will venture off his own little planet and grow up. That is such a cop-out. What am I missing then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 But that is whats being celebrated by armed forces day, YOUR issue may be different but that no suprise as i dont even think you know what you are on about half the time. Yes it is, so consider everything that the armed forces have done over the past 200 years and consider whether the institution is worth supporting and whether you believe that all of it is honourable and should deserve support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortalpuppet Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovenotfear Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Don't shoot the messenger http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/video/061809.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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