Armed Forces Day

[immortalpuppet]

American crap.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Yep.

 

Well at least you are consistent, but I don't know what to think about your outlook on Britain's foreign policy and war when you would celebrate so many conflicts and interventions that the British government involved the forces in which were wrong and caused hardship and death to thousands (maybe millions).

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Don't shoot the messenger

 

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/video/061809.htm

 

You can't support troops and at the same time disagree with what they are doing. It doesn't make sense.

[JakeDavid]

Are you a troll or are you for real? It is not the troops fault that they are being sent to a conflict which does not necessarily directly relate to the interests of the UK and they should not be disrespected for it.

 

Suppose there were a chemical weapon attack or a terrorist attack, i am pretty sure you would be in open arms to the help of the armed forces.

[MilitantDogOwner]

Ldv, I beg you spend an hour at the Armed Forces Rehab centre at Headley Court. Spend that hour talking to the men and women who have lost limbs in the course of the duties.

 

I would also ask you to interrupt the next Rememberance Day parade and shout your arse baked ideals at the top of voice and see how well received you would be.

 

Just because you don't agree with the conflict, don't belittle the soldier.

[John]

LDV

 

Irrespective off the political reasons behind the conflicts, the Armed Forces Personell deserve a great degree of respect for the situation and the enviroment they work in. I ask LDV would you face death at every moment, maiming and loss of limb at every step you take, Torture, public execution, etc etc for these beliefs of yours?? The personell from the Armed Forces do every minute of every day.

 

Like MDO says, take a trip down to Headingly Court, have a little chat with a few of the Paras/Royal Marines etc and see if they agree with your opinion.

[John]

Don't shoot the messenger

 

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/video/061809.htm

 

You can't support troops and at the same time disagree with what they are doing. It doesn't make sense.

 

 

Yes you can, You can have a respect for the courage and bravery and the terrible enviroment they work in, whilst sat behind you lovley Uni classroom desk, reading your books on how to change the world with revolutionery philisophical debate..

[Chinahand]

LDV - do you have any sympathy for the position soldiers etc are in?

 

I understand you have studied military policy etc. Sure "as an anarchist" you are against states and laws and all that - do you raise this in your essays etc - I'd love to know the reaction of your lecturers etc to your politics.

 

But given the system that exists it is highly likely that the rapacioius will take advantage of the weak - and hence for a country to maintain armed forces would seem, even for an idealist as panglossian as you, a necessary evil - if the UK didn't have a military it would simply be sheltering under another's shield and the costs of doing that would have implications for its political independence and the well being of its citizens.

 

Soldiers take on a covenant with the state - they will do what they are ordered to do - and will accept the risk of dying in the performance of their duties. The flip side of that covenant is that the soldier expects the state to use force wisely and properly.

 

Of course those are weasel words and you are presenting a long list where that isn't the case - your politics means you believe it should be obvious to every squaddie etc that they should mutiny and turn their weapons on their political masters.

 

Well, I disagree - there is no doubt that the military covenent is strained at the moment. But we are a functioning liberal democracy and for all your claims that politics is irrelevent I think most soldiers understand they are under political control and that political control is based on democratic institutions.

 

So, soldiers sign up - they say they will risk death, and do so on the presumption that our democratic institutions will call them to make that sacrifice for the good of their fellow citizens.

 

You may ridicule that commitment, say it should be obvious that it is flawed and wrong. But listen mate - who's contributions to this thread are being shot down.

 

I respect that commitment, want to ensure that the institutions of the state maintain and strengthen it, and do not abuse it.

 

I see rememberance day as being about the waste and futility of war. It is a day to remember all people dragged into death and war by the state - some for honourable reasons, some for the most dishonourable.

 

I hope any Armed Forces day will not become a pomp and circumstance excuse for waving flags and making partiotic claims.

 

In some ways quite the opposite - it should be a day of reflection - to make citizens understand that people will sign up to die to protect the democracy we are a part of.

 

That means we must all work to ensure that democracy functions properly to make that sacrifice an honourable undertaking.

 

How the state uses the young men who drill and train and march through are streets isn't a trivial question. It is a vital one for any country.

 

Getting people to understand that is important, as a result of that I am in favour of an Armed Forces Day - not to wave flags, but to get citizens to think about the demands they make on their soldiers, and the sacrifices soldiers make to carry out those demands.

 

That is a serious business no matter what any citizen smith anarchist may think.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Are you a troll or are you for real? It is not the troops fault that they are being sent to a conflict which does not necessarily directly relate to the interests of the UK and they should not be disrespected for it.

 

Only someone who is a diehard patriotic or misunderstands where I am coming is going to find what I am saying offensive.

Nothing I have said it disrespectful of troops. If you disagree, by all means explain how.

 

I would also ask you to interrupt the next Rememberance Day parade and shout your arse baked ideals at the top of voice and see how well received you would be.

 

I've already referred to Remembrance Day - this is not what I am talking about.

 

Irrespective off the political reasons behind the conflicts, the Armed Forces Personell deserve a great degree of respect for the situation and the enviroment they work in. I ask LDV would you face death at every moment, maiming and loss of limb at every step you take, Torture, public execution, etc etc for these beliefs of yours?? The personell from the Armed Forces do every minute of every day.

 

Yes you can, You can have a respect for the courage and bravery and the terrible enviroment they work in, whilst sat behind you lovley Uni classroom desk, reading your books on how to change the world with revolutionery philisophical debate..

 

Everyone keeps talking about respect. Let's make it clear what this means as it such a vague term. If you mean not to DISrespect then yes I agree. If respect means something different then please explain.

 

But in reply to your comments JustJohn support doesn't mean recognising in one's own mind that people work in tough conditions and risk their life. That isn't what support means.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

LDV - do you have any sympathy for the position soldiers etc are in?

 

Of course I do, but this isn't what I am talking about. My criticisms are with the institution and meaning behind this Day.

 

But ideas of political independence and protection of weak are seen by you from a very liberal perspective where you genuinely believe that government and the people of Britain are one and one that ignores the control of the strong by the weak in every nation state. My position is one that see the vast majority of conflicts as a product of the antagonism between nation state, i.e. the elites in different countries.

 

What difference would a replacement of one elites with another really make when the people have such a small amount of political power themselves. There is nothing wrong with fighting, I am not a pacifist. It is completely justified in preventing further oppression, as is the case in WW2.

 

The list of instances I presented is to highlight that in supporting Armed Forces as an institution, you support who it works for and also support all that it does. And this includes the very obvious instances where force was used for quite terrible reasons and without serious costs.

 

Democratic institutions. Again, this is all lovely modern liberal thinking, but it is theoretical. Again, control of the forces rests with government and elites, not with the people. It is directed to satisfy their interests. Whilst there can be correlation between the interests of the elite and the people this has far more often than not been the case.

 

 

 

You may ridicule that commitment, say it should be obvious that it is flawed and wrong. But listen mate - who's contributions to this thread are being shot down.

 

I am being shot down because there is a misunderstanding that by criticising the functioning of this institution, its history, and the purpose of propaganda that aims to put it in good light I am criticising the soldiers, pilots and sailors, etc. This is not the case nor should be seen as such.

 

I hope any Armed Forces day will not become a pomp and circumstance excuse for waving flags and making partiotic claims.

 

In some ways quite the opposite - it should be a day of reflection - to make citizens understand that people will sign up to die to protect the democracy we are a part of.

 

That means we must all work to ensure that democracy functions properly to make that sacrifice an honourable undertaking.

 

But this is my point, because this Day didn't appear out of the blue. It has been decided upon to adopt it, why?

Of course it involves patriotism because nothing so blind could be used to dupe people into a frame of mind whereby people see the Armed Forces as a force for good for themselves and, even more wrongly, the world.

 

But our disagreement would hinge on whether it is right for people to be supporting democracy and the democratic institutions of this country. I don't think they should as I don't think people should support the polyarchic system that deprived them of control and power over their lives. You're are the liberal and believe all the modern liberal theory.

 

 

That is a serious business no matter what any citizen smith anarchist may think.

 

Citizen Smith was a Trotskyite, i.e. a communist, was he not?

[John]

You are trying to climb your way out of this hole using personel political inclinations as your ladder. You state you did not dis-respect them, but IMO you have.

 

Irrespective of your Political beliefs, can you not for once just say"fook it, the guys do a great job and they pay far to often the ultimate price.." instead of your usual shiit about we should have no need for governments and the army are all slaves etc etc.

 

Infact LDV you need a little slap of reality to get you back into the real world, your ramblings are beginning to annoy me, we live in a country that is not Communist or anarchist or fooking "ist" anything, its not perfect but its at least its real.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You are trying to climb your way out of this hole using personel political inclinations as your ladder. You state you did not dis-respect them, but IMO you have.

 

Climbing my way out of it? I have no need to. But I should be fair and ask why you think I am being disrespectful. My comments have been nothing other than political.

 

Irrespective of your Political beliefs, can you not for once just say"fook it, the guys do a great job and they pay far to often the ultimate price.." instead of your usual shiit about we should have no need for governments and the army are all slaves etc etc.

 

What the Armed Forces do is political, it is about politics. Our understanding of what they do comes from our politics.

 

It isn't like assessing the ambulance service or fire service. But again, to be fair, why do you think they do great work - and be all-inclusive and don't pick and choose what you like.

 

Infact LDV you need a little slap of reality to get you back into the real world, your ramblings are beginning to annoy me, we live in a country that is not Communist or anarchist or fooking "ist" anything, its not perfect but its at least its real.

 

Well your ignorance might annoy me, so what? You're right, this is the reality, that's the point. It is about criticising that reality and the realities that may come about if people swallow up propaganda.

[John]

http://www.armedforcesday.org.uk/

 

How awful. And it is being established for the first time in Britain.

 

It just seems to be another propaganda based scheme to maintain the old, established ides which are based on little more than abhorrent concepts of patriotism, nationalism, and misguided ideas about the purpose of the forces in 'protecting' Britain.

 

People should't be SUPPORTING (a rather meaningless concept) the armed forces nor should they be honoured.

Do we honour the forces for their role in Iraq or Afghanistan? Certainly not. And though some may argue that the forces do not choose where to be posted, well this is precisely the point because the forces are an arm of the government. They do as the government pleases in advancing the wishes of the British government (not the benefit of people). And yes, there are some aspects of the armed forces role which can be categorised as benign or humanitarian (not wars, however), but this is not the raison d'etre of the forces.

 

Besides we already have Veteran's Day to recognise the lives that have been wasted in conflicts caused by differen national government and their elites and fought on their behalf. We should reflect on the horror of war, not support the role of a government arm that is used to continue war.

 

 

This is disrespectful in my opinion.

 

Again you are basing your judgmenents on your political / society Dreams / illusions....

[La_Dolce_Vita]

This is disrespectful in my opinion.

 

I asked why you think it is, not what appears to you to be so.

[John]

http://www.armedforcesday.org.uk/

 

How awful. And it is being established for the first time in Britain.

 

It just seems to be another propaganda based scheme to maintain the old, established ides which are based on little more than abhorrent concepts of patriotism, nationalism, and misguided ideas about the purpose of the forces in 'protecting' Britain.

People should't be SUPPORTING (a rather meaningless concept) the armed forces nor should they be honoured.

Do we honour the forces for their role in Iraq or Afghanistan? Certainly not. And though some may argue that the forces do not choose where to be posted, well this is precisely the point because the forces are an arm of the government. They do as the government pleases in advancing the wishes of the British government (not the benefit of people). And yes, there are some aspects of the armed forces role which can be categorised as benign or humanitarian (not wars, however), but this is not the raison d'etre of the forces.

 

Besides we already have Veteran's Day to recognise the lives that have been wasted in conflicts caused by differen national government and their elites and fought on their behalf. We should reflect on the horror of war, not support the role of a government arm that is used to continue war.

 

 

This is disrespectful in my opinion.

 

Again you are basing your judgmenents on your political / society Dreams / illusions....

 

 

This is disrespectful in my opinion.

 

I asked why you think it is, not what appears to you to be so.

 

 

Shall I go on a trawl through all your anarchistic drivel..? Are you not stating that its awful that the day is being set up...?