Armed Forces Day

[John]

I think the services are a special case - as somebody has said most of the other emergency services do get to go home at night and don't (hopefully) regularly get shot at or blown up!

 

Though it is up to the people who consider to join the forces whether they want to be blown up or not. The only reason why people think it is commendable and honourable is because they are misled to think it is all for a worthy cause.

 

 

Why are they misled? Why is it not an honorable cause, just becuase you think thh world should be some anti-democratic anarcy we all do what we want state..Does not mean that it is.

 

Have you ever experienced life in the armed forces?

 

So how can you make judgement about other people's reasons and thoughts.

 

IMO most people join the armed forces because they choose too.. no because of some jedi fooking mind trick from the government.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Exactly, they choose to! That is what is said JustJohn.

 

And I am actually all for democracy, definitely.

[John]

Exactly, they choose to! That is what is said JustJohn.

 

And I am actually all for democracy, definitely.

 

The only reason why people think it is commendable and honourable is because they are misled to think it is all for a worthy cause.

 

 

 

So tell me LDV how are they misled?????

 

Misled for joining the army, misled for doing as they are ordered, or are you infact misled.. have you not been misled by your pro-anachy communistic books you have read?

 

[John]

The Armed Forces Day Parade will be on Sunday 26th July 2009, the march from commence from Regent Street at 3.15pm, this will be followed by a service at The Villa from 4pm.

 

I will be attending to show my support.

[StuartT]

Why? Because their role deserves no 'pat on the back'. I am not saying that the men/women of the armed forces do not work hard and not saying that there are a classification of duties that fall under what can be termed 'benign', e.g. disaster relief. But I don't give people a 'pat on the back' for work that actually makes the world worse, oppresses other people, involves killing - including those of innocents, and furthers the government and elites agenda. Do, for example, US troops deserve a 'pat on the back' for their role in reducing large areas of Fallujah to rubble? Does the warplane pilot deserve a 'pat on the back' for accidentally bombing some civilians?

 

This is the problem I see with your perspective because you, like many, want to create distinctions between the tasks that the forces are called upon to carry out and their overall job. But the overall job comprises of these tasks.

 

Does a nurse deserve 'a pat on the back' for caring for a patient despite the fact that patient would have tortured and killed them had they fallen into their hands? Does a CMT deserve 'a pat on the back' for going forward under fire to care for enemy wounded as impartially as his own? Or a Infantryman who shields a child from a bomb blast using his own body?

 

This is the problem I see with your perspective because when you spout your pseudo left wing bollocks you forget soldiers are human beings too and soldiers cover many different roles, and just do their bit to make the world a better place as they see it, and even when sent to do something they don't necessarily agree with try to do the best to make the situation better. Which is a lot more than spouting shit on an internet forum when you've probably never even seen anything near the kind of things a soldier will see.

 

You're cetainly no better (and probably a lot worse) because you try to alienate and create resentment against a group of people you probably don't even have any experience of.

 

What the f@ck are you doing to make the world a better place? Oh I forgot you're supposed to be doing some degree which you probably won't even use at some university while probably spending half the time pissed or getting stoned with your mates who wouldn't put their lives on the line for you (& vice versa)

[La_Dolce_Vita]

So tell me LDV how are they misled?????

 

Misled for joining the army, misled for doing as they are ordered, or are you infact misled.. have you not been misled by your pro-anachy communistic books you have read?

 

 

I was talking about being misled in their ultimate purpose. I asssume that servicemen join mainly or partly because they think they do good work overall, i.e. their presence and role is beneficial when viewed in its totality.

 

I may have misled myself from the books I have read. But I'd like to think that I look at the facts before choosing to make a judgement on things.

 

Does a nurse deserve 'a pat on the back' for caring for a patient despite the fact that patient would have tortured and killed them had they fallen into their hands? Does a CMT deserve 'a pat on the back' for going forward under fire to care for enemy wounded as impartially as his own? Or a Infantryman who shields a child from a bomb blast using his own body?

 

In terms of these specific instances of serviceman acting selflessly in protecting the child or caring for the wounded of the 'enemy', then maybe a 'pat on the back' may be deserving for this very specific act of courageousness. But I don't see what the relevance of your comment on torture is, especially when the Armed Forces are complicit in torturing terrorist SUSPECTS and have apparently used torture in the past.

 

In any case, I think you would agree that this IS all a rather specific aspect of the Armed Forces. In being asked to support the Armed Forces, the requirement is not one based on those 'brave and selfless' servicemen. Not all have carried out selfless tasks. And the requirements for support are far broader. What was particularly mentioned on the news is the CONTRIBUTION that the servicemen have made. Now that can be understood in the limited sense of just 'hard work' but it is extremely naive and misleading to try and detach the actual work of the Armed Force in the past and present. It isn't a beautiful record but is mainly full of dirty little jobs ordered by the British Government.

 

This is the problem I see with your perspective because when you spout your pseudo left wing bollocks you forget soldiers are human beings too and soldiers cover many different roles, and just do their bit to make the world a better place as they see it, and even when sent to do something they don't necessarily agree with try to do the best to make the situation better. Which is a lot more than spouting shit on an internet forum when you've probably never even seen anything near the kind of things a soldier will see.

 

You're cetainly no better (and probably a lot worse) because you try to alienate and create resentment against a group of people you probably don't even have any experience of.

 

Actually, it is what gets me quite angry about the current situation because I fully recognise that the servicemen are human beings, yet are under the impression that their employer is their to make things in the world a bit better for everyone. It is this common myth that the British Armed Forces are a force for good and work for the British people that creates the idea that doing the job contributes to some greater cause. I can't cheer about their job and the institution when it just a government arm out to benefit the business communities of the world and willing to kill civilians now and again amongst other things.

 

In any case my issue is not with the troops and the last thing I would want is for them to be resented by society. I think if you believe I am calling for some hatred or alienation of soldiers then YOU cannot make a distinction between them and their employer. It is not being being better than them, but criticising the Armed Forces as an institution and the government it serves.

 

What the f@ck are you doing to make the world a better place? Oh I forgot you're supposed to be doing some degree which you probably won't even use at some university while probably spending half the time pissed or getting stoned with your mates who wouldn't put their lives on the line for you (& vice versa)

 

I probably will use the degree, it isn't vocational. And I don't smoke weed - it's bad for me. Well I am not making it worse! But you're quite right, I need to get more involved in trying to make the make the world a better place.

[StuartT]

So tell me LDV how are they misled?????

 

Misled for joining the army, misled for doing as they are ordered, or are you infact misled.. have you not been misled by your pro-anachy communistic books you have read?

 

 

I was talking about being misled in their ultimate purpose. I asssume that servicemen join mainly or partly because they think they do good work overall, i.e. their presence and role is beneficial when viewed in its totality.

 

I may have misled myself from the books I have read. But I'd like to think that I look at the facts before choosing to make a judgement on things.

 

Does a nurse deserve 'a pat on the back' for caring for a patient despite the fact that patient would have tortured and killed them had they fallen into their hands? Does a CMT deserve 'a pat on the back' for going forward under fire to care for enemy wounded as impartially as his own? Or a Infantryman who shields a child from a bomb blast using his own body?

 

In terms of these specific instances of serviceman acting selflessly in protecting the child or caring for the wounded of the 'enemy', then maybe a 'pat on the back' may be deserving for this very specific act of courageousness. But I don't see what the relevance of your comment on torture is, especially when the Armed Forces are complicit in torturing terrorist SUSPECTS and have apparently used torture in the past.

 

In any case, I think you would agree that this IS all a rather specific aspect of the Armed Forces. In being asked to support the Armed Forces, the requirement is not one based on those 'brave and selfless' servicemen. Not all have carried out selfless tasks. And the requirements for support are far broader. What was particularly mentioned on the news is the CONTRIBUTION that the servicemen have made. Now that can be understood in the limited sense of just 'hard work' but it is extremely naive and misleading to try and detach the actual work of the Armed Force in the past and present. It isn't a beautiful record but is mainly full of dirty little jobs ordered by the British Government.

 

This is the problem I see with your perspective because when you spout your pseudo left wing bollocks you forget soldiers are human beings too and soldiers cover many different roles, and just do their bit to make the world a better place as they see it, and even when sent to do something they don't necessarily agree with try to do the best to make the situation better. Which is a lot more than spouting shit on an internet forum when you've probably never even seen anything near the kind of things a soldier will see.

 

You're cetainly no better (and probably a lot worse) because you try to alienate and create resentment against a group of people you probably don't even have any experience of.

 

Actually, it is what gets me quite angry about the current situation because I fully recognise that the servicemen are human beings, yet are under the impression that their employer is their to make things in the world a bit better for everyone. It is this common myth that the British Armed Forces are a force for good and work for the British people that creates the idea that doing the job contributes to some greater cause. I can't cheer about their job and the institution when it just a government arm out to benefit the business communities of the world and willing to kill civilians now and again amongst other things.

 

In any case my issue is not with the troops and the last thing I would want is for them to be resented by society. I think if you believe I am calling for some hatred or alienation of soldiers then YOU cannot make a distinction between them and their employer. It is not being being better than them, but criticising the Armed Forces as an institution and the government it serves.

 

What the f@ck are you doing to make the world a better place? Oh I forgot you're supposed to be doing some degree which you probably won't even use at some university while probably spending half the time pissed or getting stoned with your mates who wouldn't put their lives on the line for you (& vice versa)

 

I probably will use the degree, it isn't vocational. And I don't smoke weed - it's bad for me. Well I am not making it worse! But you're quite right, I need to get more involved in trying to make the make the world a better place.

 

You are such a good advert for national service.

 

Military nurses, CMT's, etc are not under a duty to torture their patients - infact it quiet contravenes their position. Even Front Line Infantrymen are not. That some squaddies have abused their positon (and have been taken to task for it) is irrelevant. There may be certain areas where a 'softening up' process is used as a means to extract information, but the welfare of those prisoners is still of concern (a dead or mentally ill prisoner is not much use to someone who wants information) as it doesn't look too good when you're repatriating prisoners.

 

You totally missed the point anyway, the fact that the majority of servicemen and women are people just doing their job, who are prepared to put their lives on the line for others. You claim those specific examples I have highlighted are somehow exceptions to be applauded. I think what you've missed is that they're not exceptions but are the norm of a people doing their daily job. Army Nurses for example caring for the enemy are far from unusual, and they carry out the same duty of care forall their patients, regardless of status. You could even have a military nurse looking after you next time you are in an NHS hospital, and you wouldn't even know it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You are such a good advert for national service.

 

Haha, are you trying to wind me up? National service is such an appalling idea. I doubt I could do much to advertise it.

 

 

Military nurses, CMT's, etc are not under a duty to torture their patients - infact it quiet contravenes their position. Even Front Line Infantrymen are not. That some squaddies have abused their positon (and have been taken to task for it) is irrelevant. There may be certain areas where a 'softening up' process is used as a means to extract information, but the welfare of those prisoners is still of concern (a dead or mentally ill prisoner is not much use to someone who wants information) as it doesn't look too good when you're repatriating prisoners.

 

I am not talking about soldiers torturing suspects, but rather the fact that the British government and many others use torture. It is the Armed Forces who 'catch' these suspects. I only bring up this point as you seem eager to portray something commendable in the code of conduct of the army, but this isn't really credible when the Army is complicit in this torture.

 

You totally missed the point anyway, the fact that the majority of servicemen and women are people just doing their job, who are prepared to put their lives on the line for others. You claim those specific examples I have highlighted are somehow exceptions to be applauded. I think what you've missed is that they're not exceptions but are the norm of a people doing their daily job. Army Nurses for example caring for the enemy are far from unusual, and they carry out the same duty of care forall their patients, regardless of status. You could even have a military nurse looking after you next time you are in an NHS hospital, and you wouldn't even know it.

 

I think you are missing the point. These tasks are not part of the normal day to day job - you seem to be focusing on troops and medics, and of course the Armed Forces includes many other areas. A significant proportion of troops may be putting their lives on the line. And the actions of theirs may be selfless and courageous, they may put their lives on the line in place of other soldiers and maybe even sometimes foreign civilians (of recent). So what? Why should society applaud the people simply because they are brave?

 

Besides this argument is moving away from the obviousness of what this is all about. As I and some others have said, this is not about just supporting the troops. If you can't recognise the government agenda in this, i.e. the patriotism and jingoism, then you probably don't understand at all what you are supporting. And are not in reality supporting the people in the Armed Forces, but probably actually doing the reverse.

[John]

I think secretly LDV always wanted to be a soldier, but was just never good enough.

[John]

why did you delet your reply LDV..?

[Matt Bawden]

You should really sit down and express your views with some serving soldiers, I would pay to watch it.

 

 

I know a lot of serving soldiers from the UK and they have become dissillusioned about what they are fighting for, some have even quit.....most people join the armed forces because they think they are doing good, unfortunately not all wars are just wars...a lot of what LDV says is quite intelligent and I actually agree with some of his points, unfortunately he has a woeful way of putting his views across and often offends.

 

That's my two penneth worth ta.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

why did you delet your reply LDV..?

 

Sorry, went to amend it and deleted it by accident.

 

I know a lot of serving soldiers from the UK and they have become dissillusioned about what they are fighting for, some have even quit.....most people join the armed forces because they think they are doing good, unfortunately not all wars are just wars...a lot of what LDV says is quite intelligent and I actually agree with some of his points, unfortunately he has a woeful way of putting his views across and often offends.

 

That's my two penneth worth ta.

 

Why woeful?

[Matt Bawden]

why did you delet your reply LDV..?

 

Sorry, went to amend it and deleted it by accident.

 

I know a lot of serving soldiers from the UK and they have become dissillusioned about what they are fighting for, some have even quit.....most people join the armed forces because they think they are doing good, unfortunately not all wars are just wars...a lot of what LDV says is quite intelligent and I actually agree with some of his points, unfortunately he has a woeful way of putting his views across and often offends.

 

That's my two penneth worth ta.

 

Why woeful?

 

You are extremely blunt at times and seem to lack compassion, a robot or computer can be right but lack any emotion, that usually is enough to differenciate between man and machine, but with you at times it's very hard to separate.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You are extremely blunt at times and seem to lack compassion, a robot or computer can be right but lack any emotion, that usually is enough to differenciate between man and machine, but with you at times it's very hard to separate.

 

Compassion for the serviceman? If I didn't have compassion for them I wouldn't oppose the idea of this Day.

[Lovenotfear]

As the BBC implies, raising awareness lies at the heart of all this. But not in the way we are supposed to think. Armed Forces Day is, if you possess the alternative viewpoint, a brazen maneouvre. And it serves many purposes.

 

1. It makes wars look ‘right’.

 

2. It boosts the morale of those who take part in wars.

 

3. It makes uninformed members of the public (the masses) feel guilty that others are fighting wars on their behalf.

 

4. It encourages anti-war protesters out onto the streets. They are then outnumbered by uninformed members of the public who are ‘outraged’ by such a lack of ‘respect’.

 

5. It masks the horrors of wars.

 

6. It glorifies wars.

 

7. It diverts attention away from investigation into reasons for specific wars by generalising war itself as ‘active duty’.

 

8. It brings out a patriotic side in uninformed members of the public. How ironic, when you consider one of the aims of the manipulators is to continue breaking down national barriers.

 

9. It is a show of force, prolonging the myth that peace can be obtained through violence.

 

So clever!!

 

There is a number 10, and it’s the most important factor of all in my view.

 

Armed Forces Day ensures that the military is seen on the streets of Britain.

 

You can choose to follow the masses and get used to that sight. Or reject it out of hand. Up to you!