manshimajin Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 It's not that I'm very comfortable with state authority, I'm just not automatically fearful of any change. I can look at both sides and see where there's benefits to improving identity recording, which will actually help to reduce many of the fears this documentary tries to induce. I am not against balanced and well managed state authority - what concerns me is not data collection but the quality and mental attitude of people who then use that data. The UK Public Service seems to be particulalry bureaucratic and to have difficulties in talking to people. Much easier to get them to fill out another form or to just obey without question. In their hands I can see a perfectly sensible system becoming Orwellian. I suspect that quite a few people are not so much against the Cards but worried about the way they will be used. I don't know if you have been through eBorders at Heathrow but I had the rare pleasure recently of coming off a Singapore flight and going to an Irish bound one. I had my passport checked. I went through a sealed off corridor and had my hand baggage checked. I then went along another sealed corridor and was issued with my ticket for the Irish flight. On through the next sealed corridor where my just issued ticket and my passport were checked again. Finally through another sealed corridor to have my hand baggage checked again. Thank goodness it wasn't crowded. It is that sort of unthinking bureaucratic system that to me typifies the sort of public service that will be handling ID cards in future - 5 security checks when 3 would have done. No concept of efficient security or customer service - the public just have to obey what some muddle headed bureaucrat demands even though it is obviously way OTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I am not against balanced and well managed state authority - what concerns me is not data collection but the quality and mental attitude of people who then use that data. The UK Public Service seems to be particulalry bureaucratic and to have difficulties in talking to people. Much easier to get them to fill out another form or to just obey without question. In their hands I can see a perfectly sensible system becoming Orwellian. I suspect that quite a few people are not so much against the Cards but worried about the way they will be used. It is that sort of unthinking bureaucratic system that to me typifies the sort of public service that will be handling ID cards in future - 5 security checks when 3 would have done. No concept of efficient security or customer service - the public just have to obey what some muddle headed bureaucrat demands even though it is obviously way OTT. Bit confused from reading your post what your particular issue with them is. Are you just bothered about them being introduced but not used efficiently? Customer service and efficient security are certainly not what most people are bothered about. It is potentially the least of our concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Bit confused from reading your post what your particular issue with them is. Are you just bothered about them being introduced but not used efficiently? Customer service and efficient security are certainly not what most people are bothered about. It is potentially the least of our concerns. What concerns me is not data collection but the quality and mental attitude of people who then use that data.....In their hands (ie UK Public Servants) I can see a perfectly sensible system becoming Orwellian. I suspect that quite a few people are not so much against the Cards but worried about the way they will be used. I think that is fairly clear LDV. Data is just data. It is what is done with it that is either benign or not. The PS in the UK is IMO already one of the most intrusive in the 'free' world as it is. Many of them are not the smartest folks I have come across either. I am concerned with what an increasingly authoritarian public sector will do with the data they collect ostensibly to prevent terrorism and major criminal activity. I only mention my experience with eBorders as an example of out of touch with reality and crass PS stupidity in enforcing the 'UK Borders'. Why when you are in a 'controlled' zone (i.e. one with only one entry and one exit) do they need to check your passport three times and your hand luggage twice? If this mentality spills over to the ID Card system (should it be introduced) it will be intrusive, highly irritating to the public and operated by jobworthies. Anyway from what I can gather there is only a limited possibility that the ID Card system will be fully implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 I read yesterday that they are launching an I.D. Scheme in Manchester. It is voluntary but will be advertised. The UK Home Office definition of 'voluntary' is probably not the one you are thinking of. Once you have signed up for the 'voluntary' ID Card you will not be allowed to cancel it and you will stay on the National Identity Register for life. That's not voluntary. Also, the intention is that you will need an ID Card to hold a passport. So, no ID Card - no passport. That's not voluntary either. The point Andrew Watson of NO2ID makes is that it's the Home Office that is pushing the ID Card scheme on the politicians. If the Conservatives get elected then they will get the hard sell too. The suggestion is that the new 'fingerprint' passport will come with some kind of national database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 When are they introducing it over here? I need to renew my passport this year and I would much rather have an id card instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 When are they introducing it over here? I need to renew my passport this year and I would much rather have an id card instead. Sorry to disappoint but the very sensible decision had been taken that the Isle of Man will not be part be part of the ID Cards scheme. If you want an ID Card go and live in England and vote New Labour! Anyway, why do you want to have your personal details recorded and tracked on the National Identity Register? It's no use to you and very intrusive. Moreover, if you fail to update them with you details there are hefty fines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Because to fly to England I need to show some ID. Why is the Manx governement curtailling my freedom in this manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Because to fly to England I need to show some ID. Why is the Manx governement curtailling my freedom in this manner? Easy. Have a look at the Flybe website for ID Requirements Domestic/Republic of Ireland travelA valid passport An expired passport (can be used on domestic flights for up to two years after expiry) Valid photographic EU or Swiss national identity card Valid photographic driving licence Valid armed forces identity card Valid police warrant card/badge Valid airport employees security identity pass A child on parent’ s passport is an acceptable form of ID CitizenCard Valid photographic firearm certificate Valid Government-issued identity card SMART card Electoral identity card NUS cards photographic (National Union of Students) Photographic University/College ID card Company ID cards of Nationally recognised companies (photographic) Council issued bus pass (Senior Citizens only) Pension book (as only acceptable form of non-photographic identification) Young Scot Card Children under 16 years of age, travelling on their parent's passport, do not require separate photographic ID. When travelling on international routes, children under 16 travelling on their parent's passport must be accompanied by the parent. If you are between 18 and 60 and don't want the hassle of a passport why not get a Citizencard? It will belong to you and you can cancel should you no longer require it. It cost only £10 and there are no nasty penalties or snooping databases involved. The Government don't get involved so there is less worry about someone losing all your personal data. On a personal note I have only every carried my driving licence when travelling across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Bit confused from reading your post what your particular issue with them is. Are you just bothered about them being introduced but not used efficiently? Customer service and efficient security are certainly not what most people are bothered about. It is potentially the least of our concerns. What concerns me is not data collection but the quality and mental attitude of people who then use that data.....In their hands (ie UK Public Servants) I can see a perfectly sensible system becoming Orwellian. I suspect that quite a few people are not so much against the Cards but worried about the way they will be used. I think that is fairly clear LDV. Data is just data. It is what is done with it that is either benign or not. The PS in the UK is IMO already one of the most intrusive in the 'free' world as it is. Many of them are not the smartest folks I have come across either. I am concerned with what an increasingly authoritarian public sector will do with the data they collect ostensibly to prevent terrorism and major criminal activity. Oh right, well I agree. I just thought you were making out that due to negligence or incompetence they would be misused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I quite like the citizen card idea. That's all I need. Haven't got a driving licence - I live on the Isle of Man and therefore have never needed one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 If you are between 18 and 60 and don't want the hassle of a passport why not get a Citizencard? It will belong to you and you can cancel should you no longer require it. It cost only £10 and there are no nasty penalties or snooping databases involved. The Government don't get involved so there is less worry about someone losing all your personal data. On a personal note I have only every carried my driving licence when travelling across. Yeah says who a 'private company'?! From their site: "All your personal details are kept on our secure database at our card centre in London." - And how secure is this database cronky? What makes you think your details are any safer here than any other database? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Is it not easier to penalise a private company for mishaps? Companies lose money when they do silly things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 From their site: "All your personal details are kept on our secure database at our card centre in London." - And how secure is this database cronky? What makes you think your details are any safer here than any other database? Simply because we don't see commercial organisations losing data like Government Departments in the UK do. I would rather not have to carry such a card at all. However, given the choice I would go for the simplest, cheapest and least intrusive option. At present it's my driving licence. If I have to carry something with me when I fly I would rather lose that than, say, my passport which I keep purely for travel outside the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Simply because we don't see commercial organisations losing data like Government Departments in the UK do. Yes we do. All the time there are statements released that customer details have been hacked, leaked, emailed by mistake, lost on usb sticks, sold on sites etc - from commercial organisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I think that if you check it out you will find that HSBC received a massive fine in the last few weeks for the way it kept confidential client information. The difference is that the private sector get fined heavily, by the Public Sector, for any mistakes whereas the Public Service themselves get told that they were naughty. Mind you that Police Officer did resign when he inadvertently exposed the details of an anti-terrorist raid to journalists as he entered No 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.