Petition Against Massive Air Tax Increases

[piebaps]

Like the initial post indicated this is not some sort of hypothecated tax to go towards environmental issues. It will go into the general tax take (like "road tax") and be used for things like rescuing the banks, social services, MP's expenses etc etc.

 

 

That's a little disingenuous VoR, you appear to be suggesting that the tax money is all wasted!

 

Bank rescues - I know the perception is wasted but we don't really know what the consequences may have been if they were allowed to fail.

 

MP's expenses - I'll agree with you on this but the amounts involved are small in the great scheme of things.

 

The one I was surpised by however was Social Services. Is this not a worthy way to spend money? The public perception is of course that the "SS" are a bunch of interfering ne'er do wells but that is largely based on the fact that you only ever hear about their failures.

[Matt Bawden]

Personally I think that the global warming issue is a complete load of cock, but we as a race are too arrogant thinking that we have a right to cheap long haul flights..there that's me two penneth worth.

 

That makes absolutely no sense. If (unsurprisingly) you don't accept climate change, why do you think air travel should be taxed more?

 

Reason, of course I'd prefer an aviation fuel tax which was funneled straight into sustainable travel, but even raising prices with a tax that just goes into the common purse will still discourage air travel. Better than nothing.

 

Manshimajin, I agree with you, but like I've said many times on here, I don't see these things as exclusive. Many people post things here that basically say "Why don't they stop (doing that thing that affects me) and start (doing something bigger that doesn't directly affect me at all)?". I think we should be doing both.

 

 

It makes perfect sense...I don't accept climate change/global warming/whatever....but appreciate the fact that I don't go on long haul flights that often so actually don't mind paying extra, if I did then I just wouldn't go, not really the end of the world is it? If they ndidn't tax this it would be something else like boat travel, which incidentally I do use a heck of a lot....so not really rocket science to work out slim, if you can be arsed rather than attack.

[The Voice of Reason]

Like the initial post indicated this is not some sort of hypothecated tax to go towards environmental issues. It will go into the general tax take (like "road tax") and be used for things like rescuing the banks, social services, MP's expenses etc etc.

 

 

That's a little disingenuous VoR, you appear to be suggesting that the tax money is all wasted!

 

Bank rescues - I know the perception is wasted but we don't really know what the consequences may have been if they were allowed to fail.

 

MP's expenses - I'll agree with you on this but the amounts involved are small in the great scheme of things.

 

The one I was surpised by however was Social Services. Is this not a worthy way to spend money? The public perception is of course that the "SS" are a bunch of interfering ne'er do wells but that is largely based on the fact that you only ever hear about their failures.

 

 

 

No I think you have misunderstood me. I certainly don't think all tax money is wasted, and tax is very necessary (that's why I included Social Services) . (But I am sure some is "wasted" - but that's not the point)

The point I was making that Airport Passenger Tax was not an "environmental" tax but one that draws money into general Government coffers. It may be portrayed as a worthy attempt to discourage flying (a la tobacco and alcohol) but to disguise it as such when it is merely a device to increase tax revenue is misleading

 

Hope that clears it up

[Sebrof]

So, you chaps want to make it more expensive for tourists and business people to come to the island, and for locals to go on holiday?

 

Hmm.

 

Yes. I think I was pretty clear?

 

If your suggesting we'd lose out, I disagree. I believe more expensive air travel would encourage nearby people to come here.

 

That's a reasonable point. Also, if airfares go high enough, it might start to make the Racket look cheap.

 

S

[cheesemonster2005]

Not signing either. Airlines should pay their taxes - they are already exempt for fuel costs. A world where the tax you paid was related to how much you could afford to pay would be the best bet but it would be difficult to implement so maybe just a huge tax for those traveling to "business" centres like Zurich and Dubai and luxury hotspots like the Caribbean et al. Extra taxes should go towards subsidising ferries and trains - or in the case of the UK renationalising the railways.

[ballaughbiker]

Here we go again. Aircraft destroying the planet and shouldn't be encouraged - tax 'em out of the skies etc etc etc except they're not destroying the planet. A 2/3 full Dash Q400 is a remarkably economical form of transport. I think I might have come up with some figures before when this was previously discussed - if you do a "search".

 

I certainly do not dismiss global warming but air travel is made out to be much much worse than it really is and it seems some posters have fallen for that party line. I shall be signing.

[manshimajin]

I remember when fruit and veg was seasonable and it was a treat to have strawberries in the summer. Some apples that we buy coming in from the far east are 5-6 months old FFS! It's nice to eat with the seasons and you can usually tell the difference in taste. As well as the damage to the UK food producing industry when it's impossible to compete with cheaper imported substandard alternatives.

 

There's an interesting list of food miles for typical produce here: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/g...ate-451139.html

IMO what also needs to be added to calculations of the carbon footprint of foodstuffs is not only the additional transport but the costs of packaging, storage and particularly wastage and disposal of the wasted food - which is horrendous. When I walk around supermarkets such a lot of the produce seems to be imported - even basics such as potatoes (and where does the flour for the bread come from?). And a high percentage of the local produce emits massive amounts of destructive methane front and back! I understand that NZ is talking of introducing a 'fart' tax for livestock to encourage farmers to work on either alternative foods or on finding ways of drastically reducing the methane emissions. When you add food production, food transport, packaging, storing, displaying, cooking and throwing away this is by far and away the biggest cause of carbon emissions (and water and erosion problems). If politicians are REALLY serious about the futre of the world they should be moving on this energetically.

[The Voice of Reason]

. When you add food production, food transport, packaging, storing, displaying, cooking and throwing away this is by far and away the biggest cause of carbon emissions (and water and erosion problems). If politicians are REALLY serious about the futre of the world they should be moving on this energetically.

 

Yes God forbid we should cook our food. Obama should act energetically to outlaw this cause of carbon emissions. In fact displaying food (see above) should be a capital offence - 10 years minimum at least no parole

[Evil Goblin]

The principal reason for so many of our problems is, simply, that there are too many of us. Homo Rapiens is a plague infesting the Earth. Maybe climate change, etc. is just the Earth's way of going about ridding itself of many of us.

[manshimajin]

The principal reason for so many of our problems is, simply, that there are too many of us. Homo Rapiens is a plague infesting the Earth. Maybe climate change, etc. is just the Earth's way of going about ridding itself of many of us.

You are right about the numbers - and the projections by the UN are horrendous in terms of population growth. Breeding will be our undoing! Sometimes I wonder if this whole thing is an insoluble problem that only disease, war and disasters will fix - not at all a happy thought. TBH much of what is happening is tinkering at the edge of a problem no politician can raise.

[Slim]

It makes perfect sense...I don't accept climate change/global warming/whatever....but appreciate the fact that I don't go on long haul flights that often so actually don't mind paying extra, if I did then I just wouldn't go, not really the end of the world is it? If they ndidn't tax this it would be something else like boat travel, which incidentally I do use a heck of a lot....so not really rocket science to work out slim, if you can be arsed rather than attack.

 

I'm not attacking you, I'm questioning your post. It still doesn't make any sense to me. Where in your garbled explanation does the original arrogance point come in?

[manshimajin]

Yes God forbid we should cook our food. Obama should act energetically to outlaw this cause of carbon emissions. In fact displaying food (see above) should be a capital offence - 10 years minimum at least no parole

I'd start by banning all these TV so-called 'master-chefs' who dream up more and more exotic ingredients that come from further and further away. I'd put a carbon tax on food imports and on food packaging (just think what Ireland achieved with its plastic bag tax). As for cooking - well these days you can't have a decent kitchen without all the gadgets that use electricity, the built in espresso machine, a microwave, a steam oven etc etc. And anyway what is wrong with good old raw food. The Japanese live longer than we do and eat raw fish and raw horse flesh (very tasty too it is) - the French do well on steaks that are 'bleue' - the Greeks and Italians seem to survive longer on fresh salads.

 

One way or another food, food transport and food wastage is one of the biggest problems (apart from growing global populations that want to eat!).

[triskelion]

The principal reason for so many of our problems is, simply, that there are too many of us. Homo Rapiens is a plague infesting the Earth. Maybe climate change, etc. is just the Earth's way of going about ridding itself of many of us.

You are right about the numbers - and the projections by the UN are horrendous in terms of population growth. Breeding will be our undoing! Sometimes I wonder if this whole thing is an insoluble problem that only disease, war and disasters will fix - not at all a happy thought. TBH much of what is happening is tinkering at the edge of a problem no politician can raise.

Oh jeez, not the population thing again. The UN doesn't predict 'terrifying numbers;' it predicts that population growth will tail off around 9 Billion.

 

What is it, something like 20% of the World's population accounts for 80% of consumption? So we could cull the other 80% (which are probably those more likely to be affected by disease, war, disasters) and achieve a consumption drop of only 20%.

 

This of course assumes the consumption of the 20% remains stable, but really its unlikely this group will start consuming less.

[The Voice of Reason]

Yes God forbid we should cook our food. Obama should act energetically to outlaw this cause of carbon emissions. In fact displaying food (see above) should be a capital offence - 10 years minimum at least no parole

I'd start by banning all these TV so-called 'master-chefs' who dream up more and more exotic ingredients that come from further and further away. I'd put a carbon tax on food imports and on food packaging (just think what Ireland achieved with its plastic bag tax). As for cooking - well these days you can't have a decent kitchen without all the gadgets that use electricity, the built in espresso machine, a microwave, a steam oven etc etc. And anyway what is wrong with good old raw food. The Japanese live longer than we do and eat raw fish and raw horse flesh (very tasty too it is) - the French do well on steaks that are 'bleue' - the Greeks and Italians seem to survive longer on fresh salads.

 

One way or another food, food transport and food wastage is one of the biggest problems (apart from growing global populations that want to eat!).

 

I'm trying to think what Ireland did acheive with its plastic bag tax. Can you enlighten me?

 

I've also eaten in France, Greece and Italy (and a couple of Japanese restaurants) and it's not all raw food - that's just silly.

 

Uncooked pizza anyone?

 

 

 

[Evil Goblin]

Triskelion - the problem isn't just with numbers. The "other 80%" are aiming for the same sort of high-consumption, energy-intensive lifestyle as us 20% and it simply isn't possible for the Earth to support that. The danger is that as the other 80% strive to match us and we won't consent to reduce our profligacy then we'll ravage the Earth beyond repair, as far as human beings are concerned.