La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Goodness knows, but at times you come out with the type of chip-on your shoulder, political bullshit you expect of a 16 year old - you sound like Rick from the Young Ones - "pigs - the bastards" - grow up. Not about a chip-on-my-shoulder. I think considering the overall role the police carry out, I have good reason to get angry about it when I think of what is done. I don't agree with it. You get 'whinging' people who get really cross about people on benefits, for example. Do they have a chip on their shoulder? Do they need to grow up? Nothing wrong with feeling cross over something. I have already made it clear that I do not HATE the individuals in the police force. More than likely that person standing there has been subject to an assault - put in fear of violence. Those mindless fools in the car have put their, and other members of the public at risk, because any sensible response to them has to assume its a real weapon - if things go wrong there is more than a chance that if there is a confrontation with the police they'll be a real weapon discharged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarbunny Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I can - that is definitely NOT a ham sandwich. Is this one a real gun, a replica or a Ham Sandwich? That would be a replica BB gun as produced by Kuan Ju in Taiwan, notice the spring along the front of the magazine, along with the Kuan Ju logo on the grip. I see your point that in reality had this replica been pointed at you, you wouldn't have time to work out the fine details and as such if presented with such an accurate replica its probably best to assume the worst, although the majority of people would not even give the fact it maybe a fake a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Erm - LDV - one of my pet hates is people who take the extreme to be the representative. No doubts - if a group of policemen recklessly shoot an innocent person and then used their position to cover that up then they deserve everything the legal system can give them - prison, loss of job, banning from working in certain professions etc. But don't pretend that such behaviour is what your hated "system" represents. The same goes for chip-on-shoulder stereotypical Daily Mail readers who think anyone who recieves social security is a scrounging, work shy chav. Such extremes of course exist (both within the police and the unemployed) - but they are not representative; and the benefits a police service or the social security system brings outweigh the damage it does due to bent coppers and paying for beer and fags for the lazy. I've never been conservative - I feel there are huge flaws in society - with human talent left unused - and believe massive amounts of work are needed to reform it and get it working better - an unending task as society will always change and our systems will always lag behind that change. But where you and I differ is that I see the system as being created by people communially attempting to improve their environments. Certainly there are contradictions in this - actions which improve one group of people's lot damage anothers - and politics is dealing with those contradictions. You want to destroy these systems - go back to anarchy - you see the political elite as stiffling "the workers". I just want the council to not waste so much money emptying the bins, find a way to provide housing more affordably, and ensure the talents people have are nurtured and used and other such mundane things. Those aren't trivial issues, but when you turn up with your statements about the police or education system or whatever it just comes over as so much baloney. Are you really saying the police aren't necessary? That kids who go around intimidating and scaring people should just be left to continually push how far their intimidation can go - cos I bet you if kids like that were allowed their head it wouldn't be long before one of their like walked into a shop or wherever with that gun to demand booze or whatever. Get real - you can't even define what you want - its a school boy rant of "I hate the world and want it to be perfect - anarchism is the way to do that." You can't even tell us what that even means - how do you achieve peaceful anarchy - as opposed to mob rule a la Somalia or where ever. You haven't a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 *Pulls up a bed* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Erm - LDV - one of my pet hates is people who take the extreme to be the representative. I don't based my judgement on one example of police violence. No doubts - if a group of policemen recklessly shoot an innocent person That in itself is inexcusable and outrageous. But where you and I differ is that I see the system as being created by people communially attempting to improve their environments. . Yes, you're right, I very much disagree with this. You want to destroy these systems - go back to anarchy - you see the political elite as stiffling "the workers". Go back to what? I don't want us to go back to anything Get real - you can't even define what you want - its a school boy rant of "I hate the world and want it to be perfect - anarchism is the way to do that." You can't even tell us what that even means - how do you achieve peaceful anarchy - as opposed to mob rule a la Somalia or where ever. You haven't a clue. You can read about anarcho-communism or anarcho syndicalism on the internet. Somalia case is interesting. It is no complete mess of a country. From what I gather, most of the country is actually more economically productive than it has been in the past 50 years. And as far as I was aware, apart from the southern areas, crime has actually reduced, especially in the north. But this isn't a anarchism with capitalism. The situation has been degenerating over the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Is this one a real gun, a replica or a Ham Sandwich? You missed the point of my post, which was to say that a BB gun is as dangerous as a ham sandwich, whereas a knife could be lethal. I then said that the law forbids imitation firearms in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaman Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 You missed the point of my post, which was to say that a BB gun is as dangerous as a ham sandwich, whereas a knife could be lethal. I then said that the law forbids imitation firearms in public. Admittedly I was being a tadge pedantic but - could you tell the difference between a loaded Glock and a gas powered BB firing replica? I couldn't, not if it was being brandished by a hooded scrote sounding off about not gettin' nuff rispeck! My arse would be going from a tuppence to a thre'pence repeatedly. Very few people would be scared off by a ham sandwich. Most would feel very scared at having a gun, real or replica pointed at them. So why should these scrotes be allowed to get away with it even if no-one was physically injured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 But where you and I differ is that I see the system as being created by people communially attempting to improve their environments. I also disagree with this. It's rubbish. That is seldom how political change works. Our current political system is a product of a select group's attempts to hold on to power. The only time big change is effected communally is through revolution. Any other attempts by the populus to effect change must be done through the system that is already in place, and that is inherently constructed to maintain the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 My arse would be going from a tuppence to a thre'pence repeatedly.] Never heard of that before, hahaha. Very few people would be scared off by a ham sandwich. Most would feel very scared at having a gun, real or replica pointed at them. So why should these scrotes be allowed to get away with it even if no-one was physically injured? No, they shouldn't get away with it at all. Just wondered what sort of way is best to deal with something like that, rather than going for normal 'kneejerk' reaction of saying they should be fined, given community servive, or custodial sentence. They haven't harmed anyone, yet they do create a risk to the public's safety by being stupid. What should be done and is it right to consider their possible lack of awareness of the gravity of the situation when considering their punishment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 You missed the point of my post, which was to say that a BB gun is as dangerous as a ham sandwich, whereas a knife could be lethal. I then said that the law forbids imitation firearms in public. Admittedly I was being a tadge pedantic but - could you tell the difference between a loaded Glock and a gas powered BB firing replica? I couldn't, not if it was being brandished by a hooded scrote sounding off about not gettin' nuff rispeck! My arse would be going from a tuppence to a thre'pence repeatedly. Very few people would be scared off by a ham sandwich. Most would feel very scared at having a gun, real or replica pointed at them. So why should these scrotes be allowed to get away with it even if no-one was physically injured? Yeah, i certainly wouldn't know the difference, either. Like chinahand said, if done threateningly brandishing a BB gun could be a form of assault, and that's what the law against imitation firearms is for, i suppose. It might not be able to hurt you physically, but it might make you keck yourself. I never said they shouldn't be punished - if anyone's rights were violated in the incident, and that included being scared shitless, they should be punished - but ten years in prison would achieve nothing. I wonder what the penalty for carrying a real firearm in public is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I doubt there are any 'textbooks' on anarchism. Though I don't see how you think it is antiquated at all, would be interested to hear you think so. Is that excluding the various results yielded by tapping "anarchism" into Amazon's search facility such as Anarchism and Other Essays; Italian Anarchism 1864-1892m No Gods, No Maters: An Anthology of Anarchism, or even a visit to your university book shop or library? As for the issue of these ideas being a bit antiquated, surely you don't think that you're sharing cutting edge social theories here? Most of what you refer to dates back to the twenties at the latest - hell, even some anarchists consider anarcho-syndicalism as anachronistic and old hat tosh, whilst your views of an ideal educational system being driven by pupils and embracing creativity is one that dates back to at least the 1960s when such theories first became fashionable amongst education and sociology circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaman Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 but ten years in prison would achieve nothing. Two years in an Infantry Regiment would though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [is that excluding the various results yielded by tapping "anarchism" into Amazon's search facility such as Anarchism and Other Essays; Italian Anarchism 1864-1892m No Gods, No Maters: An Anthology of Anarchism, or even a visit to your university book shop or library? Gave it ago and Bertrand Russell's Proposed Roads to Freedom: Socialism, Anarchism and Syndicalism caught my eye - its available on line here. The amazon review is interesting - I'm fascinated by ideas such as "decentralised guild socialism" - there's a pastoral idealism in it - something about artisans, english summers and the guild leading us to utopia is very much stuck in the English psyche from John Major to Russell to Shakespeare - fascinating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 The amazon review is interesting - I'm fascinated by ideas such as "decentralised guild socialism" - there's a pastoral idealism in it - something about artisans, english summers and the guild leading us to utopia is very much stuck in the English psyche from John Major to Russell to Shakespeare - fascinating! There's an interesting parallel there with the ancient Romans, who much like the British (especially those of Russell's era) tended to celebrate the ideals of progress and civilization whilst simultaneously criticizing the urban life that embodied these ideals as decadent, and holding the pastoral and rural up as an example of honest virtue that should be aspired to. It's a strange dichotomy certainly - I'd be interested to know if other nations share it. But this is off topic. Bang 'em up! Down with the filth! Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hee hee - lets keep derailing. Daoism definitely has it. The Daode Jing is full of the primitive anarchist ideals estolling the pastoral. In fact I'd say most religions struggling to understand increased urbanization and its consequences (Buddism, Christianity etc I think Judaism and Hinduism are older more pastorial relgions which had difficulty adjusting to the metopole and were hence partially subsumed by later relligions) have strong pastoral anarchist themes about communal living away from the hubbub of the city. Heck how has this thread got on to this!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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