[BBC News] Sidecar racer killed in S100

[Lee54]

In Colorado alone, a record number of people died on the slopes this year: 14 skiers and 1 snowboarder. There is no obvious pattern to these deaths. Eight of the people were male and seven were female. Their ages ranged from 5 to 67 years. Some people were on difficult runs, others were on moderate slopes or easier trails. Only one person was wearing a ski helmet!

 

According to the National Ski Areas Association, approximately 25-50 people die each year at ski resorts in the United States. Over the last 17 years, the number of deaths has fluctuated dramatically for no apparent reason. Last year, 47 people died nationwide.

 

 

Three days ago you were quoting Italian Ski Statistics, now Colorado, What next French, Austrian? Whatever it does not make your argument any more valid just because you keep repeating it and ignore the responses which undermine what you say.

 

I will therefore repeat my response of three days agio which was that Last year worldwide 53 people died skiing out of 60.5 million participating days. That is safer than swimming and on a par with cycling. By contrast allowing for 10 days racing/practice and 1 death the rate for the TT is about 1 death per 1,000 participant days which is roughly 1,000 times worse and I am being generous in my calculation. In fact in the last 25 years it seems on average there have been 4 deaths a year making the TT about 4,000 more dangerous than skiing. Your figures are bogus but then you do did desribe the TT as the safest Road Race in the world which is cotradictory to the figures produced. But then again you ignoore that just as you ignore anything which does not agree with you view.

 

Finally if you just want to compare numbers there were over 5,000 motorcyclist killed in the US in 2007. That is about 1,000 skiers figure you are so found of.

And in the same year over 16000 murders, over 5000 children under 14 killed in accidents in the US, BlaBlaBla

 

 

 

1. Horse racing: 128

2. Sky diving: 123

3. Hang gliding: 56

4. Mountaineering: 51

5. Scuba Diving: 11

6. Motorcycle racing: 7

7. College Football: 3

8. Boxing: 1.3

[Slim]

And in the same year over 16000 murders, over 5000 children under 14 killed in accidents in the US, BlaBlaBla

 

I don't think the US government gives prize money for murders.

[spanna]

how did .3 of a person die in boxing? . Anyway those stats are absolutely useless lee54 without the participant totals

[Lee54]

how did .3 of a person die in boxing? . Anyway those stats are absolutely useless lee54 without the participant totals

 

 

From another thread, the island has not got the best of records has it, racing not included.

 

Frances

View Member Profile Add as Friend Send Message Find Member's Topics Find Member's Posts Jan 20 2008, 07:40 PM Post #2

 

 

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European wide figures for 2006 are available - http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety_l.../scoreboard.pdf - UK had 56 deaths/million a decrease from 63 deaths/million in 2001

IoM best year (assuming an 80k population) was 100/Million and worst year around 170/million

 

I believe they do not include deaths on closed roads (ie TT,MGP etc) but not sure re death in Peel go-kart race

 

It is good to see the figures openly published - there was an extended debate on this (and earlier boards) in which I estimated that the Manx death rate was around twice that of the UK but obviously for the early years I was unduly optimistic - about 3x the UK rate is appalling and no wonder the Gov did not openly publish the fugures.

Obviously with a much smaller base from which the statistics are drawn, each single incident would have a much greater significance and a wider variation in annual figures would also be expected but on UK figures about 4 to 5 deaths/year should have been expected.

 

 

 

Would you rather see more bike riders racing about the roads and putting other road users at risk, or have them on a track..

 

I could show you a video of an idiot riding a bike on the mountain open roads at 170mph. And as a bike rider I don't approve of that type of behaviour.

[spanna]

Why do bikers have to race fullstop btw? Why would they race on a open road if there is no closed road to race on ?

Where is putting their families first and "protecting their children", since that is what you claimed you were interest in in your original posts.

 

If your interested in "protecting the children" then you dont go on a motorbike fullstop it seems completely obvious to me.

[Lee54]

Why do bikers have to race fullstop btw? Why would they race on a open road if there is no closed road to race on ?

Where is putting their families first and "protecting their children", since that is what you claimed you were interest in in your original posts.

 

If your interested in "protecting the children" then you dont go on a motorbike fullstop it seems completely obvious to me.

 

I used to enjoy a good ride out on my bikes without speeding or putting others at risk but the standard of car drivers on the roads now has put me and many other bike riders off, that's why track days at the UK tracks now are very popular.

[Frances]

Would you rather see more bike riders racing about the roads and putting other road users at risk, or have them on a track..

 

I could show you a video of an idiot riding a bike on the mountain open roads at 170mph. And as a bike rider I don't approve of that type of behaviour.

Is this the best argument you can put forward ? - if TT is stopped then all the idiot bikers would merely break the law (as it seemed at least twoTT riders did this year) to the potential hazard of all other road users - under these circumstance I can see a blanket 50mph ban immediately as was imposed on several A roads in the UK solely to reduce the carnage due to bikers.

[Wake Up Call]

To solve this issue once and for all, hold a referendum on the subjects of speed limits and closing roads for motorcyle racing at the next general election.

That way we could have a near 100% turnout and a decision from everybody that is accurate and fair.

[Lee54]

Would you rather see more bike riders racing about the roads and putting other road users at risk, or have them on a track..

 

I could show you a video of an idiot riding a bike on the mountain open roads at 170mph. And as a bike rider I don't approve of that type of behaviour.

Is this the best argument you can put forward ? - if TT is stopped then all the idiot bikers would merely break the law (as it seemed at least twoTT riders did this year) to the potential hazard of all other road users - under these circumstance I can see a blanket 50mph ban immediately as was imposed on several A roads in the UK solely to reduce the carnage due to bikers.

 

 

Its not just bikes, whats this prick trying to do.

 

[Nitro]

Would you rather see more bike riders racing about the roads and putting other road users at risk, or have them on a track..

 

I could show you a video of an idiot riding a bike on the mountain open roads at 170mph. And as a bike rider I don't approve of that type of behaviour.

Is this the best argument you can put forward ? - if TT is stopped then all the idiot bikers would merely break the law (as it seemed at least twoTT riders did this year) to the potential hazard of all other road users - under these circumstance I can see a blanket 50mph ban immediately as was imposed on several A roads in the UK solely to reduce the carnage due to bikers.

 

 

Its not just bikes, whats this prick trying to do.

 

 

 

Nearly had a fair few bikes off their anyway.

 

To ask "whats he trying to do"....

 

This is the no1 racing capital of the world, this behaviour is encouraged, he was trying to race?

[KMC]

Would you rather see more bike riders racing about the roads and putting other road users at risk, or have them on a track..

 

I could show you a video of an idiot riding a bike on the mountain open roads at 170mph. And as a bike rider I don't approve of that type of behaviour.

Is this the best argument you can put forward ? - if TT is stopped then all the idiot bikers would merely break the law (as it seemed at least twoTT riders did this year) to the potential hazard of all other road users - under these circumstance I can see a blanket 50mph ban immediately as was imposed on several A roads in the UK solely to reduce the carnage due to bikers.

 

 

Stopping the TT would not increase the law breaking. The TT is a race in it's own right, and the only ones allowed to race are those that enter and hold the relevant race licence to compete on the closed roads. Placing a speed limit on your unrestricted roads would reduce the number of bikes around the island, and in the main those that visit now because of the lack of speed limits. Stopping the TT would however reduce the number of bikes across full stop, as many visitors for the TT arrive on their own bikes.

 

As for the comment regarding the speed restrictions over here due to carnage caused by bikes, then I do find this very hard to believe!! There are more accidents on most roads involving cars and other four and multi wheeled vehicles. You can't blame it all on the bikers.

 

The only reason I believe we have this continual debate about bikes on this forum is that there seems to be a high percentage of members that don't like or don't agree to the roads being given over for the four weeks a year in order for the racing to take place. And yes, some are against the sport in general for the danger that it promotes due to its nature. A sport that is carried on all over the world in differing forms, and at differing levels.

 

And yes, I do understand that this is a general forum, and you will always get a cross section view as apposed to the pro biking websites view when it comes to such subjects. That's why I find this site so interesting :-)

 

We all have a choice in life, and isn't it a great thing that we have individual beliefs, likes and dislikes.

 

I attend the TT because I follow the sport, but if it wasn't to happen again, then yes I and many others wouldn't make the trip across as often or at all, and would probably direct our attention more to Ireland or over here if the likes of Scarborough (Oliver's Mount) and Aberdare were still available to provide the facilities to race on the roads.

 

Having said that, I would still come across to the Island, as I have other connections with the IOM apart from the racing, so might be on my bike or in my car depending on the nature of the visit.

 

Having said all of that, I would really love to have the best of both worlds, where we continue to hold the TT/ MGP in its entirety, but without the possibility of serious injury or death. How this can be achieved is another matter, and I do feel that one day the Health and Safety will do it’s best to curtail the events in their current format, if not stopping them altogether?

 

Kev

[Gladys]

Hitherto, a great supporter of the TT (with absolutely no understanding, just thought it was great for the IOM), but that is dwindling now as I do want to understand the injuries these guys face and also the mode of their death. As a poster above correctly pointed out, the 'declared dead at the scene' or 'declared dead on arrival' does hide the horror of these accidents. I doubt that such 'sensitive' reporting does anything to help the family, but it does a great deal to obfuscate the human cost of participation.

 

In the 1970's there was a horrific accident at the top of Bray Hill where a sidecar (I think) hit the manhole cover and half the driver ended up in one garden, the other half elsewhere and the head of the passenger somewhere else. For years that manhole cover was marked with a yellow line to warn competitors; the official line was instant deaths. I doubt it, even with the severe injuries. But that information was never made public, it was all rumour.

 

Without being voyeuristic, I do think that a more frank reporting of these accidents will allow everyone to properly evaluate the worth of the TT, MGP etc. and whether we really want it.

[Mr. Sausages]

Its not just bikes, whats this prick trying to do.

 

He's taking advantage of the lax attitude to public safety that is encouraged on the "road racing capital of the world" - just like all the other pricks on the video.

[Vulgarian]

In the 1970's there was a horrific accident at the top of Bray Hill where a sidecar (I think) hit the manhole cover and half the driver ended up in one garden, the other half elsewhere and the head of the passenger somewhere else. For years that manhole cover was marked with a yellow line to warn competitors; the official line was instant deaths. I doubt it, even with the severe injuries. But that information was never made public, it was all rumour.

 

Without being voyeuristic, I do think that a more frank reporting of these accidents will allow everyone to properly evaluate the worth of the TT, MGP etc. and whether we really want it.

 

I'm not a doctor, but I'd say that losing one's head usually results in almost instantaneous death.

 

It's a good point though. Most people are not aware of the effects that a high speed road accident can have on a human body. I suspect that if more people were, popular support for road racing would decrease rapidly, which may be a factor in the customary non-disclosure of exact injuries sustained by riders. The disclosure of Dongworth's injuries was exceptional.

[Nosferatu]

In the 1970's there was a horrific accident at the top of Bray Hill where a sidecar (I think) hit the manhole cover and half the driver ended up in one garden, the other half elsewhere and the head of the passenger somewhere else. The official line was instant deaths. I doubt it , even with the severe injuries. But that information was never made public, it was all rumour.

Lol I've heard of sceptical but you doubt that death was instant even though one poor bloke was decapitated and the other halved ?

Or are you saying that you don't believe that those injuries occured ?

Anyway slightly more to the arguments pro and cons of bike racing v other sports/profession etc . Personally I'm not a biker nor can I claim to be a huge fan of bike racing , I do however enjoy catching the odd race in particular the stuff on the Billown circuit . My thoughts are that the riders know the risks and are willing to take them , chances are that their partners also know the guys/ girls who they have married/living with etc so you could also argue that they knew what they were getting into and therefore it could be considered selfish if they tried to change their partner . In the case of the top riders is the prize money enough to make a living from racing and how does it compare to similarly risky jobs ie trawlerman , merchant seaman ? BBC top 10 dangerous jobs UK

I also acknowledge that outside of the top riders essentially it is an expensive and dangerous hobby and that the riders still hold other jobs so in a comparison with other dangerous sports how does it fare in the fatality rates Some study or other into sports fatality rates . . Ok the TT itself probably has a slightly higher ratio but approx 230 deaths over 100 years and however many competitors probably still equates to a reasonable number given the nature of the racing .

In my opinion nobody is right or wrong , people will always want to race , others will always say it's too dangerous . As for selfish I refer to my ealier statement , people are assuming to some extent that the racers just totally ignore their wives/girlfriends/husbands/boyfriends etc , do you not think that is a touch patronising on said partners that they just sit and put up with the others hobby/profession and have no say in matters ? So to come to my conclusion there isn't one .