[BBC News] Sidecar racer killed in S100

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Only one life changing injury in 2007 Seamus Green ran into the back of another rider that was touring and should have been pulled over by the marshalls, that rider Maeda paid the price. Seamus is at home in Hospital being looked after very well by family and friend who still follow the road racing.

 

You are implying that the marshalls were at fault for the accident and if they had done the job properly then the guy would not still be in hospital. Any reason why those individuals if they did not do their job correctly as you imply should not be sued for the resulting injuries to Seamus Green.

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In OKLAHOMA CITY convicted sex offenders on kids get the death penalty, so he saved the taxpayer a few quid.

As per the majority of replies you throw in another erroneous statement as nowhere in the report I linked to does it mention kids. Rather it reports an offence in 2007 against a 16 year old

 

Could I recommend the following as it may help you when replying to posts. http://www.understandmore.com/i-adults.htm

 

 

http://stage.newsok.com/bill-allows-death-...article/1853014

 

Are you being practicing being deliberatly obtuse or does it just come naturally. I was not doubting there was the dealth penalty for convicted sex offenders on kids in Oklahoma, I was querying why you raise the point when nowhere in this topic or any links was there any reference to kids in reference to sex offenders. There are pretty stricy laws about adultry, robbery etc in some of the middle eastern counties. but equally they are about as relevent. If you know how to please actually stick to the point.

[Lee54]

In OKLAHOMA CITY convicted sex offenders on kids get the death penalty, so he saved the taxpayer a few quid.

As per the majority of replies you throw in another erroneous statement as nowhere in the report I linked to does it mention kids. Rather it reports an offence in 2007 against a 16 year old

 

Could I recommend the following as it may help you when replying to posts. http://www.understandmore.com/i-adults.htm

 

 

http://stage.newsok.com/bill-allows-death-...article/1853014

 

Are you being practicing being deliberatly obtuse or does it just come naturally. I was not doubting there was the dealth penalty for convicted sex offenders on kids in Oklahoma, I was querying why you raise the point when nowhere in this topic or any links was there any reference to kids in reference to sex offenders. There are pretty stricy laws about adultry, robbery etc in some of the middle eastern counties. but equally they are about as relevent. If you know how to please actually stick to the point.

 

 

Who brought the sex offended into the thread, and what was he convicted off.

[Cambon]

You are implying that the marshalls were at fault for the accident and if they had done the job properly then the guy would not still be in hospital. Any reason why those individuals if they did not do their job correctly as you imply should not be sued for the resulting injuries to Seamus Green.

Lee54 and my understanding of that incident differ as it is my understanding that Maeda was not touring. He was on his first practice lap of the event, where others had already been involved in practice sessions. Jun Maeda was riding quickly but steadily, Seamus was going hell for leather and the two collided because Jun Maeda was being followed by third rider and Seamus dived out of that rider's slip stream to pass him, diving back in not realising Jun Maeda was there, and the two collided.

 

It was an unusual occurance as Maeda was put to the front of the grid to be first away as the Mayor of Tokyo (or someone of similar standing) was watching from the grandstand.

[Cambon]

In recent years I agree there do appear to have been fewer fatalities but there seems to have been a corresponding uplift in those left in a really serious conditions. Now I agree that impression may be wrong but it it is my take on matters.

 

Ten years ago, at the end of the practice report there used to be a list as long as your arm of incidents. At that time I dreaded hearing the news. These days at the end of the practice report there are one or two incidents reported and most of the time injuries are minor, as with Cameron Donald this year. As I said earlier, I no longer dread hearing teh news TT week. That is due soley to the improvements that have been made.

[jonnyrotten]

I've read every post in this thread, and apart from the occasional (and predictable) descent into personal abuse when posters run out of answers or intelligence (or both) I feel it has been a highly instructive read.

 

Motorcycle Road Racing is dangerous - walls trees, hedges, lamp-posts etc, all line the circuits and it is not possible to remove them or pad them sufficiently. There is no run-off area worth speaking of. It's exciting for exactly the same reasons. Because it doesn't have run-off areas, spectators get closer to the action. Without bulldozing walls, trees, houses etc, it can never be made as safe as a circuit and remains an anchronism.

 

However, racing is a commercial activity. Circuits hold races to make money, not promote their love of sport. Road racing is often rather different, organised in many cases by genuine sporting clubs who DO actually make the effort out of love. There are, however, exceptions to that rule.

 

In the TT we have a circuit race with a sponsor driven by a purely financial motive - bringing money to the Island, either directly via visitor cash, or indirectly by promoting awareness. That sponsor is the Isle of Man Government.

 

Therefore it seems inescapable that the Government has the moral (and possibly legal) responsibility to ensure the safety of competitors, whether it likes it or not. Given that it is impossible to attain the level of safety regarded as minimum at any closed circuit wishing to obtain a licence from the governing body of the sport, it is clear that the Government has chosen to place financial gain at the forefront of its decision-making, and go ahead with the event DESPITE the inherent risks.

 

It would further appear that the desire to evade its duty of care to riders always prompts DTL to play down the dangers and sweep death under the carpet, and fall back on the claim that the racers are just “doing what they want”, ignoring the fact that the only reason they're able to do what they want is because the Isle of Man provides them with the facilities and the organisation.

 

However, modern machines have outgrown the roads they race on. Years ago, when the World Championship used to come here, Agostini was just topping a hundred miles an hour. Lap times now are 30 per cent faster. People are no stronger, though, and no more resilient, and safety has hardly improved by a factor of 30 per cent. If it has, show me where, and I mean chapter and verse, not some of the vague imaginings already posted on here.

 

Because bikes today are so powerful they require much higher levels of ability to ride fast - and safely. That's why there are only a few top riders, and a lot of average ones. The danger lies in the fact that it takes only minimal skill to for modern machines to reach speeds which are beyond the abilities of average riders.

 

We've mentioned money on here. Most riders get nothing, in fact it's a cost. A few get well paid. They're the ones whose names we all know. Take away the money and I doubt that many of them would be here. And then how many of the rest - the slower amateurs - would be here if they weren't riding in the wheeltracks of people like McGuinness?

 

How happy would we be to stage a multi-million-pound event that closed the roads for two weeks if the small amount of publicity it generates was taken away because the Senior race was won at 106 mph by Mr Norman Arthur Putey of Worthing, who then goes back to his day job until next year?

 

Back on topic.

 

Felipe Massa's accident was covered very graphically on TV with slow-motion replays, and in the press - pictures of his face in the damaged helmet as he was lifted from the car. Youtube was showing VIDEO of the crash that killed Henry Surtees.

 

Was MR right to describe SOME of Phil Dongworth's injuries in detail?

 

Insofar as it has generated this amount of discussion you'd probably have to say yes. It's highlighted the real meaning behind the statistics.

 

Five road racers have died in the past three months. None of their families are under any illusion that their deaths were anything other than violent and brutal, but they probably exercised their parental responsibilities to ensure small children didn't learn any of the details regardless of media reporting criteria.

 

The fact is that motorcycle road racing kills participants at an alarming rate that simply wouldn't be tolerated in any other organised sport.

 

Mountain-climbing and ski-ing are not, in this sense organised sports. There's no big mountain-climbing race, and no prize money for getting to the top of Everest. Ski-ing does have organised events but the fatalities itemised in earlier posts didn't occur there. It happens to amateur skiers, the equivalent of road-going motorcyclists who crash on the Cat and Fiddle and so on. And in that comparison too you'll find bikers are at much higher risk. Hospital doctors don't call them “mobile organ donors” for no reason.

 

Some conclusions we can draw:

 

Some people like to do dangerous things and in general they probably have a right to go on doing so if they choose. If their marriage partners tolerate it, that's their call, not ours.

 

That doesn't mean that Government departments should organise high-risk profit-making ventures and invite people to come and test their luck.

 

When such events are organised in this way, the competitors must take some responsibility for their participation, and acceptance of some of the risk. But the organisers also have a responsibility to make it as safe as possible.

 

I'd suggest that the current situation, in which unpaid volunteer marshals are obliged to conduct raffles, etc in order to raise money for safety equipment they consider essential because the government department would rather spend the cash on symphony orchestras and banquets - this situation is a breach of the duty of care which the organisers of these events have to participants.

 

Worse than that - it's immoral

 

What we allow the government to do in our name when it stages these events may not be legally wrong, but that doesn't mean it's right, or acceptable behaviour.

 

 

Edited because I couldn't spell minimum properly....

[Slim]

Well said.

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Who brought the sex offended into the thread, and what was he convicted off.

 

Against a 16 year old therefore legally an adult not a child! Comprende?

[When Skies Are Grey]

Those types of lucid, well written posts have no place around here my good man....please leave

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stuff.

 

I completely agree and because I canot really add anymore I will quit posting on this topic.

 

Ultimately everybody I think agrees the TT is dangerous and as you say "Some people like to do dangerous things and in general they probably have a right to go on doing so if they choose". However I think most also accept there is a limit on this and ultimately a persons views on the TT rest with what they deem an acceptable level of risk to be. That is and will always be a matter of opinion.

[Slim]

Ultimately everybody I think agrees the TT is dangerous and as you say "Some people like to do dangerous things and in general they probably have a right to go on doing so if they choose". However I think most also accept there is a limit on this and ultimately a persons views on the TT rest with what they deem an acceptable level of risk to be. That is and will always be a matter of opinion.

 

It stops being an individuals right to do something when it becomes government funded, in my view.

[Nitro]

Lol I've heard of sceptical but you doubt that death was instant even though one poor bloke was decapitated and the other halved ?

 

Its not just the injury itself though is it?, its the moment leading upto the moment of death, ie losing control, thinking "shit this is gonna hurt" and being torn apart you're going to feel it, its not a black and white instant death, decapitated wise, its been proven by countries who behead as a form of capital punishment that its not instantaneous, not that i've got any links to prove, nor am i going to research this fact as i'd rather not.

 

I think of an "instant"....about roughly the time it takes to blink, IE "I blink in an instant"...

 

However regarding other points made, there are clear failings across the board, the marshals can only do so much with limited training (not many are fully trained paramedics), they just clear up the after affects.

 

I've heard all sorts of rumours from bodys just being dragged aside (without bothering to halt the race, just sweep up and move on), through to just presuming the rider is dead or dying and nothing they can do.

 

I personally witnessed a sidecar crash in which the rider died, haven't watched much of the racing since, it makes for uncomfortable viewing when it all goes quiet, no engine noise, no spectators laughing/smiling or raising hands, just silience as another valls victim of the course, yet within a hour or two its all opened up for the mayhem to continue.

 

For as long as the riders stay on the track, yeah the TT is great, wouldn't change a thing, however they don't/can't.

[Frances]

I've heard all sorts of rumours from bodys just being dragged aside (without bothering to halt the race, just sweep up and move on), through to just presuming the rider is dead or dying and nothing they can do.

about 3 or 4 years ago a young scandinavian in his first TT crashed into the gate post at the corner coming into Kirk Michael - as he landed up off course and declared dead at scene, he was left (? body bagged) in the front drive of the house until the session finished (I think it might have been a practice session) - there were complaints by the owner of the house abou this (got nowhere - what did he expect to happen that the session would stop whilst the body was moved?) - that rider had a very young child. There were comments that the post had not been properly protected at the time - certainly later in the week there was a substantial protection there.

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]

 

It stops being an individuals right to do something when it becomes government funded, in my view.

I was not going to post any more on this topic but I disagree with you to an extent in that vitually any sport or activity has a level of risk attached to it, even if it is very very low. It is also a matter of opinion at what level of risk an activity is deemed is deemed dangerous so ultimately there is a level of subjectivity. I would agree though that if an event is organised, money making, involving a government etc etc then it would alter my opinion what is or is not acceptable.

 

e.g if people want to try and swim to Ireland off their own bat and 1 in 100 dies trying I probably would not want to try and forceable stop them. If however an organised event was put on, especially if done so with the intension of making a profit my view would be that a death rate of 1 in 100 would not be acceptable.

 

Several years ago the IoM govt I think was not willing to stage his russian roulette trick/stunt in the IoM. Obvioulsy they deemed it too dangerous. Or too dangerous compared to the benefits. That to me shows that that they are not unconcerned about the risks and dangerous just that in respect of the TT etc they deem them presently to be acceptable.

[Cambon]

It stops being an individuals right to do something when it becomes government funded, in my view.

Like sending your kids to school?