[BBC News] Civil service warned of pay cuts

[Tugger]

The public sector seem to pay the going private sector rate for incumbents even when they've hired fucking monkeys.

 

Why didn't anyone just see whether Aspden would jump if he didn't get a 25 grand pay rise (yes, that's a 25 grand pay RISE)? He is eminently replaceable. Somebody should just call the bluff of these greedy fuckers. No way are they going to chance it in the private sector when they've got it so good.

[Tugger]

And sorry, the whole "politics of envy" schtick doesn't cut it. I have no problem with someone running their own company (or someone else's) and getting paid handsomely for increasing profitability.

 

I do have a problem with overpaid, idle career clockwatchers getting the best part of quarter of a million pounds, however.

[Terminal]

I'm starting to like you.

[Mr Shoe]

an "Administrative Officer" requires 5 GCSE's and zero ability - pay for that is £20k and up.

[The Voice of Reason]

And sorry, the whole "politics of envy" schtick doesn't cut it. I have no problem with someone running their own company (or someone else's) and getting paid handsomely for increasing profitability.

 

I do have a problem with overpaid, idle career clockwatchers getting the best part of quarter of a million pounds, however.

 

I am no apologist for Mr Aspden and don't reallly want to comment on his particular position. So let's leave that alone.

 

But say the Chief Medical Officer in the UK - does he generate income/profitability? No. But should you be prepared to pay a certain amount to secure the best person for the job -Yes

 

Or would you rather give that job to a school leaver with a grade "D" in biology because they are the cheapest option, and it's not a revenue producing job anyway?

[Joe Public]

The first five sentences of this story contains these five phrases:

 

 

"said union representatives".

 

"The union Prospect said"

 

"claimed the union"

 

"A Prospect spokesman said"

 

"Speaking on behalf of the union"

 

So, it's not really a story is it? Just scaremongering by Miss Muffitt and her cronies.

[Tugger]

And sorry, the whole "politics of envy" schtick doesn't cut it. I have no problem with someone running their own company (or someone else's) and getting paid handsomely for increasing profitability.

 

I do have a problem with overpaid, idle career clockwatchers getting the best part of quarter of a million pounds, however.

 

I am no apologist for Mr Aspden and don't reallly want to comment on his particular position. So let's leave that alone.

 

But say the Chief Medical Officer in the UK - does he generate income/profitability? No. But should you be prepared to pay a certain amount to secure the best person for the job -Yes

 

Or would you rather give that job to a school leaver with a grade "D" in biology because they are the cheapest option, and it's not a revenue producing job anyway?

 

A good chief medical officer can save cast amounts of money, just like a good FD in a company. Perhaps you might give an example within the Manx Civil Service that you consider to be worth £200 grand, as you have dodged the only specific example cited. That's two hundred thousand pounds.

[manshimajin]

Every country needs public servants - it's just a matter of how many and their competence.

 

I agree with those who focus on the more senior ones. These are the people who should be ensuring that the service operates to the maximum efficiency - the foot soldiers don't decide that. IMO we have some serious issues at senior levels in the PS on the Island. This Forum is full of examples of incompetence that (to quote a former leader of the Australian Labor Party) blind Freddie and his dog could see.

 

Personally I do not expect very much to happen - throughout my life I have heard that PS numbers are too high, need to be cut and will be cut , only to see them continue to grow like topsy.

 

Now maybe if they made 50% of the forms that they print redundant it would lead to a reduction in staffing numbers!

 

PS: I always get concerned when a country has 'civil servants' not 'public servants'.

 

PPS: The salaries of public servants in the Netherlands cannot be higher than that of their Prime Minister (which I understand is about €160,000). This sounds like a good system - as long as the Castletown shopkeeper does not see this as another opportunity to increase his publically funded pension.

[wazir]

Every organization which exists in a state of monopoly (be it private or public) should be assumed to be abusing that monopoly unless it can demonstrate otherwise.

 

Civil servants pay should be investigated certainly as clearly we need a civil service and clearly it is in the interest of the tax payers to know how much they are being paid - since it us that meet that expense.

 

It is meaningless to compare civil service salaries to those of the private sector because the civil servants do not have the same incentives to excel as the owner / director of a private business does and they do not have the same level of responsibility - this is taken by the publicly elected representatives if and when the shit hits the fan. Further, they are bound by much greater restraints in terms of general direction of trading than would be a private enterprise.

 

It is emotive to talk of crying children not getting treated at hospitals as a result of these proposed cuts or illiterate children turning to crime but in reality this will not where the cut will hit - rather it will affect those in a very comfortable position making their position slightly less for comfortable for a short while.

 

However, in my country we shot all the civil servants in the glorious revolution and all functionary responsibilities were subsumed by the 'department for national wellbeing' so I may not be the best person to comment.

[piebaps]

Talk of Docotrs and Nurses is a little misleading. They are public servants sure enough but the term Civil Servant.

 

Civil Servants as such make up 30% of the Government's workforce ( http://www.gov.im/personnel/iomcs/ )

 

Details of their pay and conditions are also on that site and details of their pay, grade by grade is here http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/personnel/iomcs...esapril2008.pdf

 

In addition to the general grades there are many specialist posts which include (among others) Prison Officers, Air Traffic Controllers, Harbour Masters and many more. The FSC post which everyone mentioned is not in fact a Civil Service post.

 

Sorry to let some facts get in the way of a good story.

[Lawnmower]

I think those very high pay scales at the top end include ALL Government employees, not just Civil Servants.

 

The highest will be FSC, (Aspden) the Insurance authority boss, the Deemsters, High Bailiiffs, Medical Officer of Health and similar experts etc etc.

 

The highest civil servant starts around £110,000? And the (9?) Chief Executives of Departments, the highest grade Civil Servants, come in at around £80,000 each.

[ruka]

Nobody should forget this table, showing the number of people earning salaries within certain bands for 2009 and 2008:

 

Remuneration Band 2009/2008

 

£225,000 - £249,999 1/0

£200,000 - £224,999 3/1

£175,000 - £199,999 13/8

£150,000 - £174,999 12/13

£125,000 - £149,999 21/16

£100,000 - £124,999 34/28

£75,000 - £99,999 87/53

£50,000 - £74,999 591/413

 

That's a dozen civil servants that the private sector pays £150 grand plus a year. Another 13 earn upwards of £175 grand.

 

The numbers of these parasites need looking at. A third of the workforce being employed by the government is not a great driver of efficiency.

 

I am a civil servant and there are more of us that are paid under 30,000 than there are above that.

[%age]

There are many Civil Servants who are hard working and worthy of their salary. They should not have any worries. The rest however . . . .

 

How does one go about ascertaining the effective ones from the ineffective? What are you proposing? Sack them and replace them? Make them redundant? Melt them down for glue? How do we support them and their families? Benefits I guess? Who pays for that? Oh yeah...us.

 

Most civil servants I come across do a good job. There's some bad ones of course, as there are poor employees in any walk of life. I work with some in the private sector. And you can't sack them either...verbal warnings, written warnings, oh the bureaucracy of it all.

 

There are many that should be put on dole money. Yes we have to then support them, but not to the tune of many £10,000s per year.

 

Don't worry, they won't starve.

 

Nobody should forget this table, showing the number of people earning salaries within certain bands for 2009 and 2008:

 

Remuneration Band 2009/2008

 

£225,000 - £249,999 1/0

£200,000 - £224,999 3/1

£175,000 - £199,999 13/8

£150,000 - £174,999 12/13

£125,000 - £149,999 21/16

£100,000 - £124,999 34/28

£75,000 - £99,999 87/53

£50,000 - £74,999 591/413

 

That's a dozen civil servants that the private sector pays £150 grand plus a year. Another 13 earn upwards of £175 grand.

 

The numbers of these parasites need looking at. A third of the workforce being employed by the government is not a great driver of efficiency.

 

Imagine somewhere in the world, there is a country of 80,000 people. That country is self-sufficient and currently stands on its own two feet. Independent to the core.

 

Now, read through the above table.

 

It is in impossible. It is fucken impossible I would say. And add to that all those swanning around here and in safe Cyprus etc. on huge final salary pensions. Rotund fat smiling chuffed cats indeed.

 

Aye, it is truly, truly fucken impossible.

 

And yet . . . . quite bizzarely . . . . it is so . . . .

 

 

When are we, the isle of Man, going to get found out I wonder?

 

Maybe come the day, the UK Government will bail us out.

[somewhatdamaged]

Having worked in the DHSS myself around 10 years ago, i can say with absolute certainty that it was a real wake up call moving to the private sector. There was an overwhelming amount of laziness in the government, and from still being in contact with guys from back then - they admit themselves that it hasn't changed, the only thing that has is the increased salary they are on.

 

There was one guy who worked absolutely flat out, probably the hardest worker i have ever seen - yet they let him go because he asked to be promoted in recognition of the many years of really hard work, and was told no. The job went to someone else who concentrated more on being in the click, than actually working.

[manshimajin]

IMO there is a real lack of connectivity in the way the Government and Public Servants work on the Island.

 

We have a Treasurer who talks about the need to do away with Rolls Royce projects, we cut back spending on essential activities and we keep on overspending on major projects by upwards of 40% versus the UK for similar work. In its last session Tynwald authorised the spending of multi-millions of taxpayers money that was IMO completely over the top (for example the Onchan Primary School which will cost us £12 million more for 100 pupils less than a similar school being built in Derbyshire; the failure to make the Airport stick to its original works schedule for taxiway resurfacing - which will cost about £1 million extra than the originally identified works would have cost now; KSF compensation; proposal by the CM to change expenses for MHKs/MLCs to pensionable salary; failure to include reform of politicians pensions in the budget tightening agenda).

 

So the government are sending out messages that 'times are tough' and then behaving like amateurs when it comes to cutting back and controlling expenditure on big ticket items or ones that directly effect them.

 

I would like to see (but never will) a top down 'root and branch' review of the political system, the political decision making system, the structure of the Public Service, the identification and thorough cleansing of over-bureaucratic processes, the assessment of senior Public Servants in terms of both their management skill and their achieved outcomes, an assessment of 'failure costs' throughout the taxpayer funded functions including Police, Prison Services, Airport, hospital, health service etc..

 

Early on in my career I was told by my employer that failures in business (and I include the PS in this) are a signal of management failure not of staff failure. I do not have the impression that most senior Public Servants here are really excellent, service, results and cost driven managers.

 

The danger is an approach that is bottom up and designed to remove cost without making the PS more effective. It needs to be top down and based not on budget reduction but on client outcome improvement.