The Tt Safety Debate

[jonnyrotten]

Posts on this topic have come up within other threads, and sent me surrying to the like sof Google and Wikipedia. By the time I got back with further and better particulars, the threads had dropped off the front page. Rather than resurrect them, I thought I'd start a new and dedicated thread.

 

Can of worms, etc, I know, but what's a forum for if it isn't healthy and lively debate on relavant topics?

 

So, for what it's worth, here's what I found.

 

For the purposes of comparison I have ignored many forms of motorsport, including all offroad, and all national events; instead I have looked at major international events, as the TT purports to be. I have also largely ignored the USA.

 

These days most racing on two or four wheels takes place on closed circuits. Before WW2, almost all racing in Europe was on road courses and closed-circuit events were a rarity. When they were introduced, the early circuits weren't much better than road courses fenced off so race organisers could charge spectators an entry fee.

 

It was only the arrival of an organised world championship, Formula One, in 1950, which eventually brought about safety improvements to protect drivers and spectators alike. Modern circuit safety only properly began in the post-Jackie Stewart era – he began to worry about it after crashing at Spa in 67, and set about the task properly when he retired in 73. So we could say that the safety movement began in 1970. Prior to that, driver and spectator deaths in Grand Prix were far from rare.

 

A quick Google uncovers 128 postwar fatalities among spectators at circuits, 83 in one incident at Le Mans. At the time – and even 6 years later when 14 died at Monza - there was nothing between spectators and race cars but wooden picket fencing and the occasional straw bale...

 

Driver deaths were also fairly common – 27 between 1950 and 1970, the year straw bales were banned as a safety device in F1 Grand Prix, because they weren't providing any protection to anyone and were even considered dangerous.

 

After 1970, a further 24 drivers died at major international events in Europe (and the occasional US Grand Prix).

 

In the main, the circuits they raced on in those years have been dropped from the calendar or extensively modified. All of the four which remain have made numerous safety improvements.

 

Spa and Monza, previously responsible for 3 deaths each respectively since 1950, were updated in 1979. Since then 2 more racers have been killed at Spa, and no driver has died at Monza, though a marshal was killed by debris there after Jaques Villeneuve crashed in September 2000. Wheel tethers were introduced into F1 the following year to try and prevent a recurrence.

 

Le Mans, where 7 drivers had aleady died since 1950, was updated in 1990. Since then, another 2 drivers have been killed racing there.

 

Hockenheim was changed in 1981. No car drivers have died there since.

 

So if we accept that the modern safety era at circuits began in 1970 and was largely in place by 1990 (the date of the last major F1 circuit safety revision), then you can measure the results.

 

From 1950 to 1970 – 24 drivers were killed racing. 1971 to 1990, another 20 deaths. 1991 to the present day – 3 drivers have died racing. Which seems unequivocal – though car safety has improved as well, of course.

 

But it's possible to trace the benefits in motorcycle GP racing as well, even though motorcycles themselves have become no less dangerous – probably the reverse, since they have become much more powerful and faster. But in the same period bike GP's have also abandoned the circuits which couldn't be made safe (including the Isle of Man) and enjoyed the benefits conferred by FIA safety measures now in place on the remaining major circuits it visits.

 

Between 1950 and 1970, 23 bike riders died in GP races. Between 1970 and 1990, a further 20 deaths were recorded. Since 1990, just 2 riders have died racing.

 

Those figures tell an undeniable story of circuit safety improvements.

 

Now let us consider the Isle of Man TT course – just one racetrack, but with half a dozen races during a TT week. Because at least 2 of those are scheduled to be three times as long as GP, and there are four races at the MGP, you could argue that the annual racing programme on the Mountain Circuit is similar in duration to a Grand Prix season on two wheels or four.

 

Between 1950 and 1970, a total of 66 riders died here. That's more than the car and bike GP fatalities in the same period added together, almost three times as many as either.

 

Between 1970 and 1990 a further 60 riders were killed on the mountain circuit. Once again that's more than car and bike racing added together, and almost three times as much as either.

 

Now, remembering that since 1990, only two Formula One drivers have been killed on track, and one at Le Mans, and that just two Moto GP riders have been killed racing in the same period, on the TT Mountain Course, things have carried on as before, with no improvement.

 

Another 70 riders have died since 1990, and that's including a year off for Foot and Mouth.

 

In case you thought things were improving in recent years, you might want to know that 26 riders have been killed since 2002 (the year after Foot and Mouth), as well as one marshal and two spectators.

 

I'm not a mathemetician, but I think this is one of those occasions when the numbers speak for themselves.

 

Here's a recap of the figures since 1990:

 

Major car racing events - 3 dead.

Bike Grand Prix - 2 dead.

TT Mountain course - 70 dead.

 

Anyone who tells you the TT safety record is something we can ignore "because the riders want to come here" is not being honest with themselves.

 

Anyone who tells you it's acceptable as is and needs no further action is living in la-la land.

[thebees]

TLDR

[GD4ELI]

Anyone who tells you the TT safety record is something we can ignore "because the riders want to come here" is not being honest with themselves.

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

[jonnyrotten]

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

 

 

And that relates to motorsport circuit safety in what precise way?

[GD4ELI]

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

 

 

And that relates to motorsport circuit safety in what precise way?

Compares two dangerous sports; by comparison road racing is not as bad as you try to make out.

[GD4ELI]

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

 

 

And that relates to motorsport circuit safety in what precise way?

Compares two dangerous sports; by comparison road racing is not as bad as you try to make out.

I'll go even further - every year more people die picking mushrooms in my Canton than die in the TT races.

[Rog]

Here's a recap of the figures since 1990:

 

Major car racing events - 3 dead.

Bike Grand Prix - 2 dead.

TT Mountain course - 70 dead.

 

Anyone who tells you the TT safety record is something we can ignore "because the riders want to come here" is not being honest with themselves.

 

Anyone who tells you it's acceptable as is and needs no further action is living in la-la land.

 

Agree 100%

 

The TT is way past its sell by date, the roads are no match for the bikes, and it's the IOM that reaps the profits but other countries that have to pay the costs.

[jonnyrotten]

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

 

 

And that relates to motorsport circuit safety in what precise way?

Compares two dangerous sports; by comparison road racing is not as bad as you try to make out.

 

 

 

two things.

 

One: mountain climbing relates to circuit racing in the same way as fishing relates to knitting - ie not at all.

 

Second, I'm not "making out" anything. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

If you can think of a way of making 70 deaths since 1990 "not as bad" as it seems, let's hear it...

[jonnyrotten]

I'll go even further - every year more people die picking mushrooms in my Canton than die in the TT races.

 

 

And this is supposed to be some sort of comparison with motorsport? Mushroom-picking? Helloo!!!!!

[GD4ELI]

I'll go even further - every year more people die picking mushrooms in my Canton than die in the TT races.

 

 

And this is supposed to be some sort of comparison with motorsport? Mushroom-picking? Helloo!!!!!

The comparison is this: people do what they want to do, they know the risks. As long as the mortorbike organisations (ACU is it ?) do their best regarding safety then I'm happy for things to continue as they do.

 

Not everyone wants to sit on the sofa all day watching Emerdale.

[When Skies Are Grey]

Does this thread have a point?

 

Do you want the TT stopped?

[Slim]

Great post. Personally I think 'they make the choice' argument goes out the window once our government starts providing prize money and other financial support for the event. We're encouraging this, and it's safety record is unacceptable.

 

The fans obviously know this, which is why any news of injury or death is supressed so vigerously. This hasn't got anything to do with respect or privacy, they simply know how bad the safety record is, know it inevitably will lead to the end of their sport and want to fight that off for as long as possible.

 

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

 

Oh no, not again. You're not measuring like for like. There's more people climbing the alps and they spend longer doing it. The safety should be measured per participant and per time spent on the activity. Also, is the local government sponsoring people to climb the alps?

[Lost Login]

More people are killed climbing in the Alps every year!

 

 

And that relates to motorsport circuit safety in what precise way?

Compares two dangerous sports; by comparison road racing is not as bad as you try to make out.

I'll go even further - every year more people die picking mushrooms in my Canton than die in the TT races.

 

The stats you quote are totally spurious as I am sure you are well aware. A more relevent number is the number of deaths per participant or per hour of activity. On your basis as there are fewer murders in the UK each year than road traffc deaths I presume you would argue being murdered is less dangerous than driving a car

[When Skies Are Grey]

The safety should be measured per participant and per time spent on the activity.

 

The you should also go further and look at the miles covered by the number of bikes here/competing....

[Tempus Fugit]

maybe the next revolution after the ttxgp would be to invent a motorbike with a kevlar 'rider-pod', like a Formula1 car on 2 wheels, to give the rider at least some degree of protection which up until now is totally absent.