The Tt Safety Debate

[Topaz]

" t's not like the Chief Minister wakes up on the first weekend in June, looks out of his bedroom window and has to wonder what all those bikers are doing racing over the mountain, is it? "

 

 

Well this one might do that........

[Albert Tatlock]

Here's a recap of the figures since 1990:

 

Major car racing events - 3 dead.

Bike Grand Prix - 2 dead.

TT Mountain course - 70 dead.

In the 50s and 60s - sixty people died on the course.

 

Since then the average lap speed has practically doubled and technology has changed shed loads - so it's actually got safer if anything IMO.

 

The only thing that has diminished since the 50s and 60s is freedom of choice...with far too many armchair critics seeming to think they now have the right to take freedom of choice away from others in too many areas of life.

[Slim]

Since then the average lap speed has practically doubled and technology has changed shed loads - so it's actually got safer if anything IMO.

 

More people died, but it got safer? Can't argue with that logic!

[jonnyrotten]

Here's a recap of the figures since 1990:

 

Major car racing events - 3 dead.

Bike Grand Prix - 2 dead.

TT Mountain course - 70 dead.

In the 50s and 60s - sixty people died on the course.

 

Since then the average lap speed has practically doubled and technology has changed shed loads - so it's actually got safer if anything IMO.

 

The only thing that has diminished since the 50s and 60s is freedom of choice...with far too many armchair critics seeming to think they now have the right to take freedom of choice away from others in too many areas of life.

 

 

Bob McIntyre, 1957, 100 mph lap record.

John McGuinness, 2008, 130mph lap record.

 

Not exactly double.

 

And the question is not whether the indidividual has the freedom to choose a risky sport, but whether or not the Isle of man is right to provide the infrastructure and the circuit on which to do so. And if it is, then is it doing enough about rider safety?

[Albert Tatlock]

Since then the average lap speed has practically doubled and technology has changed shed loads - so it's actually got safer if anything IMO.

 

More people died, but it got safer? Can't argue with that logic!

Well think it out. Given the racing conditions and safety features of the 50s and 60s - what do you think the figure for the 50s and 60s would have been, if someone had suddenly come up with technology to double the lap speed to over 130mph?

[Albert Tatlock]

Bob McIntyre, 1957, 100 mph lap record.

John McGuinness, 2008, 130mph lap record.

 

Not exactly double.

In 1949 lap records were closer to 75mph - not far off doubling bar a few MPH.

 

Yes the Isle of Man has the right to give freedom of choice, and is greatly respected for doing so in the motorcycle world.

 

But what is the 'Isle of Man' in your context? - other than 'the government' - as it is they who set the regulations allowing/disallowing it. They still allow it, because the manx people that elect them, and people who want to race, and hundreds of thousands of spectators want them to.

 

This thread is nothing more than meally mouthed lobbying against the TT etc. and a representation of, as I said previously, of how more and more people these days think they have the right to tell others how to live their lives.

 

You'll get nothing more from me than a poke in the eye about that sort of thing - and the same I suspect from many many thousands of other people.

[jonnyrotten]

Well think it out. Given the racing conditions and safety features of the 50s and 60s - what do you think the figure for the 50s and 60s would have been, if someone had suddenly come up with technology to double the lap speed to over 130mph?

 

The point is that motorcycle safety hasn't changed. You fall off now, you still fall off, just like they did then. And the safety features on the Mountain Circuit are only marginally better than they were then.

 

That's why the death rate here has remained unchanged while in circuit racing it has diminished massively.

 

1990-2009 - 70 riders killed on the Mountain Course.

 

You think that's acceptable, Albert?

[Evil Goblin]

"They still allow it, because a few of the manx people that elect them, and people who want to race, and hundreds of selfish morons want them to."

Edited for accuracy.

[Albert Tatlock]

Well think it out. Given the racing conditions and safety features of the 50s and 60s - what do you think the figure for the 50s and 60s would have been, if someone had suddenly come up with technology to double the lap speed to over 130mph?

 

The point is that motorcycle safety hasn't changed. You fall off now, you still fall off, just like they did then. And the safety features on the Mountain Circuit are only marginally better than they were then.

 

That's why the death rate here has remained unchanged while in circuit racing it has diminished massively.

 

1990-2009 - 70 riders killed on the Mountain Course.

 

You think that's acceptable, Albert?

Yes I think it's acceptable - on the basis of freedom of choice alone. Most or all of those riders knew the risks, enjoyed their racing careers, and gave pleasure to millions over the years.

 

Their choice - not yours.

 

If you want to live in a plastic bubble till you die of nothing at 120 - then be my guest. But you don't have the right to make that choice for me or others, who are doing nothing that will impact your safety or wellbeing. Fair enough, there is a 'duty' to make things as safe as possible, but with that doesn't come a right to ban it. You are talking of 100 years of Manx tradition here, older than me or you and a major contributor to motorcyling full stop.

 

Circuit racing - anyone can do that. It's like having infinitely wide motorways. And there is a major difference coming off at 50/90mph compared to 150/207mph.

[jonnyrotten]

Bob McIntyre, 1957, 100 mph lap record.

John McGuinness, 2008, 130mph lap record.

 

Not exactly double.

In 1949 lap records were closer to 75mph - not far off doubling bar a few MPH.

 

Yes the Isle of Man has the right to give freedom of choice, and is greatly respected for doing so in the motorcycle world.

 

But what is the 'Isle of Man' in your context? - other than 'the government' - as it is they who set the regulations allowing/disallowing it. They still allow it, because the manx people that elect them, and people who want to race, and hundreds of thousands of spectators want them to.

 

This thread is nothing more than meally mouthed lobbying against the TT etc. and a representation of, as I said previously, of how more and more people these days think they have the right to tell others how to live their lives.

 

You'll get nothing more from me than a poke in the eye about that sort of thing - and the same I suspect from many many thousands of other people.

 

I'm not a mathemetician, but: 2x75 = 150.

 

Ask John McGuinness whether an average lap speed of 150mph is "not far off" his 130mph lap record.

 

"Hundreds of thousands of spectators"?

 

Even if the Racket employed Anne Reynolds they'd have trouble standing that one up.

 

And even if you add in a TV audience or multiply it by 100 years or whatever, I suggest caution.

 

Hundreds of thousand of spectators thought the gladiatorial combats in the Roman circuses were fantastic, but we don't do that sort of thing now, do we? Becaause it's barbaric and dangerous and people die. Although the gladiators probably knew the risks.

 

Public opinion is no barometer of excellence or rectitude. Millions of people thought Adolf Hitler was the bees knees but he turned out not to be so great after all.

 

The fact that some people like the TT the way it is doesn't make it a Good Thing, any more than the fact that some people hating it makes it a Bad Thing.

 

But sadly all the people who do like it end up telling the ones who don't like it to "fuck off" or threaten them with a poke in the eye. I'm obliged to suspect the descent to abuse and violence is a replacement for any credible argument in favour of the event.

[Albert Tatlock]

I'm not a mathemetician...

Clearly you don't understand the probability and statistical inferences from my argument...or spokes good england either.

 

I've said my piece - and stand for freedom of choice.

 

If you want to bring Hitler into the debate, 55 million died fighting against him and others for that very same freedom of choice. But people like you piss it all away all the time.

[jonnyrotten]

I'm not a mathemetician...

Clearly you don't understand the probability and statistical inferences from my argument...or spokes good england either.

 

I've said my piece - and stand for freedom of choice.

 

If you want to bring Hitler into the debate, 55 million died fighting against him and others for that very same freedom of choice. But people like you piss it all away all the time.

 

 

No I don't understand the probability and statistical inference in your argument. Be good enough to explain them so we can ALL follow your reasoning...

 

And as I keep saying, there's a difference between freedom of choice and an organised event like the TT.

 

Just because we've been doing it for a hundred years and it's now a fine old Manx tradition doesn't mean it's STIlLL a good idea, or that if it is we should go on doing it in the same old way.

[KMC]

Bob McIntyre, 1957, 100 mph lap record.

John McGuinness, 2008, 130mph lap record.

 

Not exactly double.

In 1949 lap records were closer to 75mph - not far off doubling bar a few MPH.

 

Yes the Isle of Man has the right to give freedom of choice, and is greatly respected for doing so in the motorcycle world.

 

But what is the 'Isle of Man' in your context? - other than 'the government' - as it is they who set the regulations allowing/disallowing it. They still allow it, because the manx people that elect them, and people who want to race, and hundreds of thousands of spectators want them to.

 

This thread is nothing more than meally mouthed lobbying against the TT etc. and a representation of, as I said previously, of how more and more people these days think they have the right to tell others how to live their lives.

 

You'll get nothing more from me than a poke in the eye about that sort of thing - and the same I suspect from many many thousands of other people.

 

I'm not a mathemetician, but: 2x75 = 150.

 

Ask John McGuinness whether an average lap speed of 150mph is "not far off" his 130mph lap record.

 

"Hundreds of thousands of spectators"?

 

Even if the Racket employed Anne Reynolds they'd have trouble standing that one up.

 

And even if you add in a TV audience or multiply it by 100 years or whatever, I suggest caution.

 

Hundreds of thousand of spectators thought the gladiatorial combats in the Roman circuses were fantastic, but we don't do that sort of thing now, do we? Becaause it's barbaric and dangerous and people die. Although the gladiators probably knew the risks.

 

Public opinion is no barometer of excellence or rectitude. Millions of people thought Adolf Hitler was the bees knees but he turned out not to be so great after all.

 

The fact that some people like the TT the way it is doesn't make it a Good Thing, any more than the fact that some people hating it makes it a Bad Thing.

 

But sadly all the people who do like it end up telling the ones who don't like it to "fuck off" or threaten them with a poke in the eye. I'm obliged to suspect the descent to abuse and violence is a replacement for any credible argument in favour of the event.

 

Freedom should be very much respected in cases like this, and those that don't like or don't want the TT/MGP have a right to voice that. As do those that support the events.

 

Comparing the TT with Gladiatorial Combats however isn't fare, as those who took part had a 50% chance from the outset that they wouldn't come out alive at the end of it. Whereas the TT/MGP competitor enters a race with the thought of finishing in one piece. The fact that some don't, is down to bad luck/machine failure or a case of rider error. But it can never be regarded as a forgone conclusion!!

 

The main point here, is that the people who don't like or agree with the TT for whatever reason, believe that they have a right to take away this choice, and this is where the argument will always fail.

[gazza]

And as I keep saying, there's a difference between freedom of choice and an organised event like the TT.

 

but it is a freedom of choice,

the TT is organised because every year thay get a full list of entries that have a choice to enter or not, if there was no entries then thay woulden need to put it on,

thay dont organise it then force ppl to enter do thay,

 

all i can see if ppl still enter the races and thay still get a lot of ppl over here to watch then that is the choice of them ppl, not of the goverment or who ever sets it up,

just because an event is set up does not mean ppl are forced to enter. thay enter and watch of there own free will

 

 

o and i cant stand the fecking races, or the tt or the mgp, 4 weeks of hell it causes,

but i do think your talking shit

[craggy_steve]

Anyone who tells you the TT safety record is something we can ignore "because the riders want to come here" is not being honest with themselves.

 

Anyone who tells you it's acceptable as is and needs no further action is living in la-la land.

 

So? It's a risk sport. Some of us like taking risks. What's the problem - are we not permitted to kill ourselves anymore? Where's the thrill if it's sterile and safe? You expect us all to get a kick out of merely being fastest? Without danger?

 

I'd suggest to you that the risk is precisely why some riders ONLY do the TT, whereas others only do circuits and never road races. And personally I think we have a right to take risk, extreme risk, if we so choose, without some nanny saying "but you might hurt yourself....".

 

Yes I think the fatalities are acceptable.