gazza Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 what them 3 said ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossils Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Here's a recap of the figures since 1990: Major car racing events - 3 dead. Bike Grand Prix - 2 dead. TT Mountain course - 70 dead. Anyone who tells you the TT safety record is something we can ignore "because the riders want to come here" is not being honest with themselves. Anyone who tells you it's acceptable as is and needs no further action is living in la-la land. According to your principles, anyone that says scuba-diving is acceptable must be living in la-la land too. Or does the NIMBY rule apply? EUROPE NEWS 2009 UK - Decompression sickness nearly kills teen scuba diver SCOTLAND - New report finds humans are damaging oceans UK - Coral Cay Conservation under investigation for manslaughterf ITALY - Diver discovers ruins of ancient city SPAIN - Diving accident kills French diver off 'Coast of Death' SWITZERLAND - End of the line for bluefin tuna? CROATIA - Scuba diving accident kills Cetina cave diver UK - Aquanaut dive boat sinks off Salcombe in Devon UK - Inquest: Ruptured lung killed Royal Navy diver UK - Missing diver rescued near Lulworth Cove UK - Diver airlifted to hospital after another Channel Diver accident SWITZERLAND - Biodiversity still declining MALTA - Boat hits, injures diver off l-Ahrax in Mellieha UK - Bembridge lifeboat rescues Wight Diver dive boat customers CANARY ISLANDS - Diving accident kills man in Tenerife GIBRALTAR - Dive operators demand government regulations after diver death UK - Coastguard helicopter rescues diver caught in rip-tide UK - NAS archaeologist divers unlock secrets of Holland V sub UK - Missing rebreather diver presumed dead after Channel Diver accident UK - Scuba diving accident severely injures boy SWEDEN - Poseidon recalls defective scuba diving equipment UK - Channel Diver dive boat customer missing in English Channel UK - Boat propeller slices off chunk of dive instructor's buttocks UK - Injured scuba diver in hospital after another Dorothea Quarry accident UK - Jennifer Ann dive boat customer rescued UK - Injured scuba diver airlifted to hospital UK - Caribbean coral reefs flattened UK - BSAC divers died after ignoring wreck diving safety protocol UK - Hundreds attend funeral of scuba diving accident victim, Alan Costello UK - Massive fines expected in diver death case UK - Rapid ascent kills BSAC scuba diver SCOTLAND - Friends, family mourn dead UK scuba diver ITALY - Diver missing, presumed dead near Sicily FINLAND - Baltic divers find S-2 Soviet submarine war wreck MONACO - It's not too late to save bluefin tuna SPAIN - Scuba diving accident kills British tourist UK - Bonnie Prince Charlie divers make new finds MALTA - Scuba diving accident kills British tourist GREECE - Scuba diving accident kills National Geographic diver UK - Injured scuba divers airlifted to hospital for hyperbaric treatment SCOTLAND - One tourist dead after beer-drinking divers crash boat near Tobermory SCOTLAND - Missing sub-aqua club diver identified SCOTLAND - Rescued Gaelic Rose customer dies in hospital UK - Coastguard warns scuba divers to be more cautious SCOTLAND - Another injured scuba diver airlifted to hospital UK - Injured scuba diver airlifted to hospital SCOTLAND - Search under way for missing scuba diver UK - Inquest: Cave diving death in France SCOTLAND - Scuba diving accident kills another Rondo diver UK - Police identify dead BSAC scuba diver UK - BSAC divers remove dangerous fishing net UK - 'It put me off diving' says British actor after near-fatal scuba accident UK - Scuba diving accident kills Exeter man BRUSSELS - EU health commissioner warns travelers to avoid US, Mexico UK - Stoney Cove accident kills another scuba diver SCOTLAND - Dive boat accident victim identified UK - Rapid ascent injures another scuba diver SCOTLAND - Injured scuba diver airlifted to hospital UK - Seven scuba divers rescued off Cornwall SCOTLAND - Injured scuba diver airlifted to hospital UK - Man airlifted to hospital after scuba diving accident in Dorset SCOTLAND - Accident kills Wellservicer dive boat crew SPAIN - GUILTY: British divers admit stealing artifacts from shipwreck UK - Dive 'n sail fraudsters travel to jail IRELAND - Athlone Sub Aqua Club leader doesn't get it say rescue officials UK - Injured man airlifted to hospital after Galicha scuba diving accident SPAIN - Accused UK scuba looters consider plea deal IRELAND - Seven Athlone Sub Aqua Club scuba divers rescued UK - Divers recover body of missing BSAC diver, Alan Costello TURKEY - Build it, sink it and they will come RECALL - Ambient Pressure Diving Ltd. rebreather hoses GREECE - Scuba looters destroying Greece's cultural heritage UK - Busted: Dive 'n sail fraudsters face prison SCOTLAND - Coastguard rescues two injured scuba divers UK - Troubled waters: Oceans threatened by human impacts UK - Injured scuba diver hospitalized after another Dorothea Quarry accident UK - Inquest: Warnings signs blamed for fatal Malta scuba accident ITALY - Found: French battleship Danton UK - Mother of three drowns diving at Sosua Resort UK - David Welsh: Diver down in the dumps UK - Police probe fatal Stoney Cove scuba diving accident SCOTLAND - Body recovered in Sound of Mull identified as missing diver UK - Dive industry scammers jailed for swindling health care system GREECE - Scuba looters plunder nation's submerged cultural heritage UK - The last battle of the HMS Victory UK - Odyssey finds mighty HMS victory shipwreck SCOTLAND - Body recovered in Sound of Mull may be missing scuba diver UK - Helicopter rescues injured scuba diver UK - Another fatal Stoney Cove scuba diving accident kills diver SCOTLAND - Helicopter, lifeboat rescues Wemyss Bay scuba divers UK - Inquest: Spasm led to death of man paralyzed by scuba accident MALTA - Search called off, missing diver presumed dead PHILIPPINES - French divers prefer the Philippines MALTA - Search resumes for missing diver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I don't know what you're trying to achieve with that wall of text but half those links aren't anything to do with deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I don't know what you're trying to achieve with that wall of text but half those links aren't anything to do with deaths. My favourite - "Italian diver discovers ruins of ancient city" ooooh the drama! Methinks Fossils is in la la land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 TBH I find this a strange 'discussion'. JohnnyRotten says he just want to present the facts and when anyone does not side with his implied views says that what they say is nonsense. The TT is dangerous. Fact. People voluntarily participate in the TT knowing the death and injury statistics. Fact Approximately 2 motor-cyclists are killed every day on UK roads. Fact Approximately 1 bicyclist is killed on UK roads every day. Fact So if you are so concerned about road deaths why not ban motorbikes and bicycles from UK roads altogether and leave people to make up their own minds here? After all every day of the year the leather and the lycra brigades are going out on UK roads knowing that they may be killed. Roughly 300 times the number of bikers killed in the TT every year are killed on UK roads and 150 times the number of bicyclists are killed every year as TT riders. And it is the UK taxpayer who is paying for this - which seems to be one of the arguments being advanced for banning the TT. If you are genuinely concerned with the number of deaths from riding it makes sense to start by putting a ban on the biggest sources of death - day to day cycling on two wheels. ...as a policeman I know says, the term in the force for those on two wheels is 'organ donors'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMC Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 After all every day of the year the leather and the lycra brigades are going out on UK roads knowing that they may be killed Well I certainly don't think that when I go out on my bike, and I do believe I speak for most riders here !! as a policeman I know says, the term in the force for those on two wheels is 'organ donors'... And this particular phrase is bang out of order, and one that didn't go down well when my son was stopped on his bike and the same term used when they spoke to him - Who by the way was doing nothing wrong at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccm Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The other point that doesn't appear to have been raised is the inconvenience it causes to the population. If the TT was contested 'behind closed doors' so to speak and not on public roads then maybe it would be a case of 'well if they want to kill themselves then let them get on with it'. But when it's played out on our doorsteps and we can't go about our normal business due to closed roads then to me no-one has the right to say 'fuck off if you don't like it'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMC Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 start by putting a ban on the biggest sources of death - day to day cycling on two wheels This is not actually correct, when you read the report here Link Yes it's from 2003, but the biggest number of deaths involved cars (50%) !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 That's an excellent point, Manshimajin. I have said it before myself too. The main difference between racers and normal road users being that racers, because the risks are so much higher than riding on open roads, must expect that they may crash at some point, but ordinary cyclists and bikers do not set out on their journey to work in the expectation that they may be killed, although thousands a year are. Racers, then, are more aware of the risks they face and so more responsible when they do crash. Their misfortune is also usually of their own making, whereas road deaths often involve another party who may be to blame. I agree with Albert in that is a libertarian issue. It raises questions about the way we think about personal liberties, and how we treat death as a society. Road racers are responsible for their own actions, and if they want to turn themselves into flying minced meat then all power to them. If our government and others want to profit from it why should they not? Why are the deaths of adults, doing something they enjoy, in full knowledge of the risks they face so unacceptable? The best answer the opponents to the TT have been able to give to it is "They just are". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 would that be the TT riders or the smokers you refer to?? or both?? i think both myself, there can't be anybody riding or smoking that doesn't realise there are possible fatal consequences. but neither group do it to deliberately to end up dead ( except for beagles ofcourse ) if you wanted to save lives you would ban smoking long before motorsport No, they don't intend on killing themselves, but I don't see why that is significant? No I wouldn't, there are plenty of ways I could have an effect on saving people's lives, but it doesn't have to involve taking some unjustified position and stopping people from taking risks that may lead to death. I have absolutely no right to dictate, nor does anyone else. However, if YOU don't want to pay and support for this then try and find a way to not pay your taxes, which wouldn't be something I would criticise if you didn't want to support the races. This all seems rather trivial given the double standards involved. I am quite interested in these arguments of diminIshed responsibility, awareness, and a genuine concern about people who might be killing themselves unnnecessarily. If I am wrong, and a concrete argument can be formed to state that intervention is necessary to prevent the taking of unnecessary risks - I'll have to start objecting to the deaths of Armed Forces servicemen on the basis of their 'head in the clouds' mentality when working in the institution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 start by putting a ban on the biggest sources of death - day to day cycling on two wheels This is not actually correct, when you read the report here Link Yes it's from 2003, but the biggest number of deaths involved cars (50%) !! I think you misunderstand probability and statistics. From the first page of that report you quote: Cyclists are ten times more likely to be killed on the road than drivers of cars. Motorbikers alone account for a shocking one in five deaths, even though they represent just 3% of all licensed vehicles on the road and only 1% of all motor vehicle mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 VinnieK, I could equally apply your arguments about the "insaneness" of this debate, to the mass -hysteria of TT danger, i see in this thread What affect does the death of a competitor unaquainted with yourself, have on your everyday life? Likely to be nil i would assume. Therefore is it not unreasonable to say, of what business is it of yours? Thinking about it, I get the feeling that we're actually talking at cross purposes with regards to the issue of liberty. It's one thing for someone to say "I don't want to support an activity that I perceive to be risky or dangerous, because I think people shouldn't be allowed to take such risks", and sure enough that is an attitude that you could take to task as being opposed to people's liberties. However, the same criticism can't be levelled at someone who disagrees with state sponsorship for such activities on the basis that they object to being made to support something they disgree with, or that they don't think the society in which they live should be associated with such a sport. For example, imagine if the TT were run entirely on voluntary donations and when asked for such a donation Mr Someone refuses on the basis that what they ("the competitors") do with their lives is their own business, but he or she doesn't want to be involved in helping them do it- surely that's fair enough? Of course there are people who will criticise the races on the former basis, and I'd have difficulty supporting such an opinion, but the latter is a legitimate point and I don't think it's fair to accuse such people of being inherently opposed to the freedoms of others. As for your second point, I don't think it's true to say that deaths during the TT aren't anyone's business but those who are acquainted with the riders. It's everyone's business because, like it or not, everyone pays into the TT in one form or another and everyone is associated with the races. A number of people will baulk at public money being used to support an event which they view, be it in view of personal inconvenience or some moral objection, as not being worth the bother. Not me though, I just hate the races because they're rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyrotten Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 Just a general point or two. I don't believe the "ban motorcycles from all roads at all times arguments" has any validity, for a number of reasons. First, as I said earlier. Crossing the road is dangerous, but we don't stop doing it - we try to make it safe. What we don't do is hold state-sponsored running races on motorways. Second. Roads are dangerous to all road users. Governments spend large sums trying to make them safe using a vast array of methods all aimed at protecting road users from themselves as much as their environment. If you ride round the TT course you'll see them here too - speed limits, warning signs, road markings etc. Racing in the TT and MGP demands that all these measures are ignored, of course, and that puts racing into a different category - yet Government doesn't merely permit the TT, it organises and promotes it. Thirdly. I have ridden motorcycles all my life and still do. Every time I get on, I know that statistically I am far more likely to be hurt in the event of an rta than I would be in my car. So I take extra care, use aforesaid road markings, warning signs and speed limits to my best advantage, and generally do everything in my power to make the journey as safe as possible. Racers do the same - but my original point is that they are going out on a racetrack where safety protection has remained fundamentally unchanged for the past fifty years, and the dreadful statistics demonstrate that unequivocally. Freedom of choice and personal libert seem to be a misplaced argument. I'm afraid I can't see racing in the TT as a basic human freedom. I don't accept the argument that racers have some kind of right or entitlement to continue racing on the TT course. If it were cancelled forthwith and angry riders went to the European Court of Human Rights to argue their case they'd be laughed out of the door. There are no freedoms at stake here. As long as it exists, people have a right to take part in any organised event. But this isn't a lonely climber against the might of nature, or the madman Fiennes wandering round the Arctic with a bell-tent and a box of Mars bars. It's an organised sport, and organisers of sporting events (especially the ones who have financial gain as their prime motive) also have a moral obligation to take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of participants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilDDog Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 It's an organised sport, and organisers of sporting events (especially the ones who have financial gain as their prime motive) also have a moral obligation to take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of participants. If there wasn't any prize money at stake at the TT do you think the riders would still take part? I do.. I agree with the safety aspect but what other reasonable steps could the organisers do to make it safer? I'm sure that any ideas would be seriously considered by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I read that quote as refering to the money made by people who do not race yet feed of the event itself and the racers themselves. Viz Packet, Accomodation providers, Beer providers etc. (all feeding off the spectators ) Compared to the money they make I would consider that 'prize money' is a negligable amount. I agree with the safety aspect but what other reasonable steps could the organisers do to make it safer? I'm sure that any ideas would be seriously considered by them. Really? Consider the great fuss over Moylies decimation of procedures at the inquest a couple of years ago. Seems to take a fuck up to kick start any 'safety improvements.' eta Regarding my first paragraph - And when it goes wrong, supporters have to start the charity fund raising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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