KMC Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 This has answered one or two questions on here as to how the riders see the challenges themselves, and that they do understand the danger in what they do. Extreme to me is something that’s as hardcore as it gets, something where if it all goes a bit pear-shaped, nine times out of ten you end up pushing up daisies. It has not. Compare it with the OP of a statistical analysis of the historic trend of deaths in the TT compared with other motorsport events. This answers questions regarding the relative safety of the TT. Quoting one rider from what looks like a blog-type entry, but could be a puff-piece for a sponsor or a piece of journalism with who knows what type of either intentional or unintentional spin or bias, does not provide a reliable determination of how the competitors as a group see the challenges of the TT. This is a blog granted, but it clarifies that he knows the dangers and that he challenges those just the same. It therefore proves that he knows the dangers, but chooses to race regardless. Freedom is what he is exercising here, and there is nothing that anyone can say or do to stop that desire - unless you ban or stop the events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xpert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Again, you cannot compare the Lions with other than feline predators in the natural world. You cannot compare these beasts with domestic cats or kittens as they are totally different animals. Accept Lions for what they are, and that is a one off animal that is nothing like anything else in the world, and as such has its own characteristics and model. Safety is something that is addressed by nature and natural selection every year, but again, and because of the nature of the beast, you cannot protect its prey the same way that anyone with domestic pets are protected. Every year the safety aspect is taken into account, and if it was possible to wrap it up like say a cute little kitten, then I’m sure it would have been done long ago. That makes it all right then. Think I'd rather stroke a kitten than a lion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 This is a blog granted, but it clarifies that he knows the dangers and that he challenges those just the same. It therefore proves that he knows the dangers, but chooses to race regardless. Freedom is what he is exercising here, and there is nothing that anyone can say or do to stop that desire - unless you ban or stop the events. It depends on your intrepatation. I accept that they all realise the dangers but what I struggle to accept is that they see it as applying to themselvers. He says something alongthe lines of "where if it all goes a bit pear-shaped you are pushing up daisies." which indicates he is aware of the consequences if it goes wrong. But do the riders believe it will go wrong or go pear shape. I doubt if many do as they believe in general they are too good or riding safely within the limits to not let it go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 comparable motorsport events Again, you cannot compare the TT with other than Real Road Racing on the roads. You cannot compare these events with BSB, WSB or Moto GP as they are totally different animals. Accept the TT for what it is, and that is a one off event that is nothing like anywhere else in the world, and as such has its own characteristics and model. Is it unique though because we are right and everybody else wrong or vice versa. Just because it is unique does not make it right or wrong. Safety is something that is addressed by the organisers, and reviewed and improved every year, but again, and because of the nature of the beast, you cannot protect the participants the same way that short circuit riders are protected. Every year the safety aspect is taken into account, and if it was possible to wrap it up like say Donington, then I’m sure it would have been done long ago. I am sorry but I just do not accept that. It should be the case but I do not believe it is the case and reaction to incidents would in my view back this up as invariably safety measures are reactionary after crtitisism whereas in my view many of them are matters that should have been picked up and acted upon previoulsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxy Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Would a purpose built track like Donington Park for bikes, cars and other race transport, be an idea in the North of the island? What would be the objections to this? and what would be the benefits? ps, does anyone know of a site that shows the circuit layout and how big it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 They also owe a responsibility to the people of the Isle of Man to maintain social order, ref. Hobbes, Locke etc. Not ensuring that the safety record of the TT races is kept in line with similar events, and the evolving social context in which "high-risk" organised events are viewed, is arguably a violation of their social contract. I absolutely agree with the rest of your post. But you don't need bring the awful views of Hobbes and Locke into, especially in respect of such theoretical garbage as the social contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slieau dhoo Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 a purpose built circuit is NOT the answer to anything. it would the biggest white elephant that The IOM has ever been involved with.... and theres been a few. Short circuit racing and road racing are two totally separate sports. The attraction of riding/ spectating/sponsoring/ marshalling at the TT is that it is DIFFERENT from the status quo of normal short circuit racing. People must realise this fact. iT is even unique amongst other road races in ireland and on the continent There are already too many circuits in the UK, and ALL of them are struggling to make ends meet financially. With the associated costs of traveling to the island, and with intense competition from the established and probably better circuits- it is not an attractive option to include any IOM circuit in any national motorsport championship. Just because it is on the IOM and it has a motorcycling heritage will count for ZERO with championship organisers. Costs are key. It only has a road racing heritage- NOT a short circuit heritage. Put simply it will not work If short circuits are the only option for racers and motorsport fans,why travel to Jurby with all of its delights(think open ,windy, isolated, no facilities, likely to be an average circuit even with development, no close hotels, limited transport links , etc etc) when you can go to an already established circuit close to home with all of its associated facilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Did not a rather well known motorbycycling chappie not suggest something like post 125 some decades ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMC Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 comparable motorsport events Again, you cannot compare the TT with other than Real Road Racing on the roads. You cannot compare these events with BSB, WSB or Moto GP as they are totally different animals. Accept the TT for what it is, and that is a one off event that is nothing like anywhere else in the world, and as such has its own characteristics and model. Is it unique though because we are right and everybody else wrong or vice versa. Just because it is unique does not make it right or wrong. Safety is something that is addressed by the organisers, and reviewed and improved every year, but again, and because of the nature of the beast, you cannot protect the participants the same way that short circuit riders are protected. Every year the safety aspect is taken into account, and if it was possible to wrap it up like say Donington, then I’m sure it would have been done long ago. I am sorry but I just do not accept that. It should be the case but I do not believe it is the case and reaction to incidents would in my view back this up as invariably safety measures are reactionary after crtitisism whereas in my view many of them are matters that should have been picked up and acted upon previoulsy. One thing to point out here, and that is I'm not advocating that my views are right or wrong. I'm purely putting across my interpretation, and also the fact that I can't accept the comparisons that are being put forward in order to offer an equal measurement of risk. Again, I do respect the views of others, but to include comparisons that are far removed from each other, is obviously not going to result in an equal balance from both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryd Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I've fought my way through all these pages and quite frankly there's nothing that I don't remember reading in "Cassandra" and other columns in the "Daily Mirror" during the Sixties. One thing is apparent to me, and that is that certain of the statistics are far from reliable - but then statistics tend by nature not to be reliable anyway. One important question: HOW MANY OF THE POSTERS TO THIS TOPIC HAVE COMPETED ON THE MOUNTAIN CIRCUIT? Finally, it is apparent that quite a few have moved to the Isle of Man from elsewhere in the UK, and to them I would say "If you don't want to play, then you shouldn't have joined" Go and earn your bonuses elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I've fought my way through all these pages and quite frankly there's nothing that I don't remember reading in "Cassandra" and other columns in the "Daily Mirror" during the Sixties. Wow the font of all knowledge, the Mirror. One thing is apparent to me, and that is that certain of the statistics are far from reliable - but then statistics tend by nature not to be reliable anyway. I'd suggest the death and injuries on the TT are well documented and factual. If you suggest otherwise kindly produce the evidence for our enlightenment. One important question: HOW MANY OF THE POSTERS TO THIS TOPIC HAVE COMPETED ON THE MOUNTAIN CIRCUIT? Out of interest since you raise the question have you? Finally, it is apparent that quite a few have moved to the Isle of Man from elsewhere in the UK, and to them I would say "If you don't want to play, then you shouldn't have joined" Go and earn your bonuses elsewhere. Again, out of interest since you raise the issue have you? Does being born elsewhere reduce intellectual capacity to engage in debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So far you and I seem to be about the ONLY posters on on this thread who haven't claimed that I would like the TT banned. But it's quite clear that mentioning the undeniably awful safety record makes the most vociferous pro-TT fans lash out at whoever mentions it, mostly because they know it's indefensible as it is.. So JR I am a little puzzled as a bystander. You support the TT (well you must support it if you don't want it banned) but you attack people who disagree with you - and who also want to keep the TT. I understand that tourist trophy races were races that took place on public roads. This certainly is the tradition of the IOM TT and if you support the IOM TT, as you imply in your quote above, you are presumably supporting this style of racing, not something else that would not have the characteristics of genuine TT racing. Frankly I cannot see how it is possible to take a long road circuit on roads like ours and turn it into a completely safe circuit. So if you support public road races such as the TT you also recognise that dangers attach to this form of racing. Would it be possible for you to actually be positive and to be specific about what you envisage for the TT - rather than generalisations and negative comments if people don't conform to your views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC-Drift.com Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The reason modern F1 and MotoGP fatalities has dropped significantly is due mainly to modern circuit design, the TT course isn't much safer now than the day it was finally tarmaced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The reason modern F1 and MotoGP fatalities has dropped significantly is due mainly to modern circuit design, the TT course isn't much safer now than the day it was finally tarmaced Yes, that is a self evident truth - however you do need to include tremendous advances in F1 vehicle design. But I think the core issue here is that the character of the TT (love it or hate it) has to do with its use of the public road circuit. IMO to retain the 'TT' (not something different) means retaining the public road circuit. Noone has mentioned the Southern 100 road races in the context of road racing on the Island. This too is dependent for its character on the circuit it uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMC Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Again, you cannot compare the Lions with other than feline predators in the natural world. You cannot compare these beasts with domestic cats or kittens as they are totally different animals. Accept Lions for what they are, and that is a one off animal that is nothing like anything else in the world, and as such has its own characteristics and model. Safety is something that is addressed by nature and natural selection every year, but again, and because of the nature of the beast, you cannot protect its prey the same way that anyone with domestic pets are protected. Every year the safety aspect is taken into account, and if it was possible to wrap it up like say a cute little kitten, then I’m sure it would have been done long ago. That makes it all right then. Think I'd rather stroke a kitten than a lion And your point in this, apart from trying to extract the urine ???? Oh, and where do I state that it is "All Right" ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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