b4mbi Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Certainly this has been debated many a time before on here, but could we stand on our own 3 legs as an independent nation?? financially - uncertain, seeing as over 50% of our income comes from reciprocal VAT agreement with UK, our nation would be a lot poorer, with the consequent knock on effect on services etc politically - would think we'd be in a reasonable position to try, but would we have to expand the government even further to encompass international relationships that supposedly the UK looks after now? economically - apply for direct EU membership? Surely there must be a minimum size, means trade restrictions lifted but adopting euro, VAT? tax strategy? defence - erm.. healthcare - erm... energy supplies - this is a critical matter in my eyes, if the Island could become energy self sufficient this would be a HUGE step towards true independence - hydroelectric dam at Sulby as was mooted on here before has to be a winner. what a complex issue.... but wouldn't it make fantastic headlines? Isle of Man Declares Independence from UK Crown. Where ARE you King David? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Is this one individual UK citizen's point of view or Lib Dem policy? If the latter does this mean they are opposed to devolution within the UK? IMO it sounds like a cranky individual trying to get a bit of air time in the Summer recess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellyup Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The independence of crown dependencies, including the Isle of Man, is to be reviewed by the UK Parliament. Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/europe/8197234.stm My goodness now Braveheart is on the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Do you think the Island's government would be at any more risk of corruption than it is now if it declared independence? Depends on what form a post-independence government would take and what kind of scrutiny of it was built into the system. It isn't simply a matter of 'small nations corrupt'/'big nations honourable' (and god knows there's enough evidence that the latter doesn't hold). I get the impression that Wallace is influenced more by an ideological committment to some ideal of a united British Isles in principle and a creaking 19th century sense of paternalism more than a concern for the practicalities and underlying issues. The natural path of devolution would be to sever the remaining bonds that subjugate us to the UK - ultimate power to legislate, common purse et al. I don't imagine the character of government on the Island would change drastically, or that the propensity for curruption would increase. What role does the UK government play in investigating corruption in Manx politics at present? I would say the Wallace is motivated by financial concerns that these wayward Islands are exploiting their tax situation while his poor queen sits in her mouldering castle that they can't afford to fix because of the incompetence of her government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellyup Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 but wouldn't it make fantastic headlines? Isle of Man Declares Independence from UK Crown. Where ARE you King David? Dunno but could you get him to sling some stones at Alistair Darling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 We really have to grab this one There are a number of options 1. Independence at some time via three routes The status quo, as is but with a long slow slide to independence which has been ongoing since 1866 ie long term Independence sooner or mid term with all 3 models of independence we have to sort out our relationjship with the EU, in, out, EEA associate 2. Status Quo with no further devolution of powers; ie still tied to Westminster apron strings and no further home rule. The line in the sand scenario 3. The go backwards scenario and beconme a County of the UK, or of Scotland, or England if the UK splits I hope no one would favour 3. We have spent 150 years slowly gaining moe and more home rule. The last 60 years has seen amazing changes and moves. Since 1960 we have gone from 60% GDP of UK per head to 140%. 2. Is becoming a more and more uneasy option for us and the UK as we gain more independence and I cannot see how you can draw the line in the sand, politics and political development don't work that way So it has to be option 1, short medium or long tern say 10, 20 and 30 years down the road we will be independent. Lets start negotiating now. As for the EU we must apply to see what terms would be on offer before we can make up our minds. There are going to be a lot of mini and midro staes wanting to apply in the balkans so we will not be out of step sizee wise. We already comply with EU membership by complyingh with common standarsd for trade. We are denied access to the finacial services market but we swap info anyway, just as Liechenstein does from yesterday with UK it has signed a tax disclosure and cooperation agreement- so we could weigh up, totally out, totally in or EEA half way house Whichever it is we will inevitably find we are bound by its decisions and it policies and dictates. I would rather be in and have a small voice. The effect on our manx langauage and culture vis a vis the regional and cultural policies would be very beneficial. The effect on our economy through full access would keep us going for 50 years. We cannot be made to tax ourselveds more than is needed to cover our outgoings anyway even by the EU. WE would get the full freedom of right to work and also health care plus subsidies or required competition for shipping facilities I anm not d sure waht we might loose OK we would have to decide what we did about borders with UK, but could still have a common travel area or enter in to Schengen We can still keep the Commom Purse arrangements ie have a Customs Union with UK We could put diplomatic representation at consular level out to tender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellyup Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 We can still keep the Commom Purse arrangements ie have a Customs Union with UK Be stupid not too as it brings in 200million a year in VAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4mbi Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 but wouldn't it make fantastic headlines? Isle of Man Declares Independence from UK Crown. Where ARE you King David? Dunno but could you get him to sling some stones at Alistair Darling? with pleasure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Politician Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 John Wright is correct. The time has come for independence. The notion that a committee driven by someone like Wallace - a failed politician who has no democratic mandate and has lost no fewer than five elections - could damage the world's oldest continuous democracy is nothing short of obscene. There are plenty of options open to us regarding our status relative to the EU, and indeed our whole basis of indirect taxation. We could remain in VAT union with the UK; we could set our own rates, giving us far more autonomy and stability; or we could introduce a replacement import duty on everything coming into the island. Both Bermuda and the Cayman Islands have such duties, and they raise enough revenue that neither has income tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellyup Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 John Wright is correct. The time has come for independence. The notion that a committee driven by someone like Wallace - a failed politician who has no democratic mandate and has lost no fewer than five elections - could damage the world's oldest continuous democracy is nothing short of obscene. There are plenty of options open to us regarding our status relative to the EU, and indeed our whole basis of indirect taxation. We could remain in VAT union with the UK; we could set our own rates, giving us far more autonomy and stability; or we could introduce a replacement import duty on everything coming into the island. Both Bermuda and the Cayman Islands have such duties, and they raise enough revenue that neither has income tax. An import duty would make you really popular with the ordinary local people ( the ones who are not rich) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 An import duty would make you really popular with the ordinary local people ( the ones who are not rich) I think the "or" suggests the import duty would be an alternative to VAT and not an additional tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Certainly this has been debated many a time before on here, but could we stand on our own 3 legs as an independent nation?? financially - uncertain, seeing as over 50% of our income comes from reciprocal VAT agreement with UK, our nation would be a lot poorer, with the consequent knock on effect on services etc politically - would think we'd be in a reasonable position to try, but would we have to expand the government even further to encompass international relationships that supposedly the UK looks after now? economically - apply for direct EU membership? Surely there must be a minimum size, means trade restrictions lifted but adopting euro, VAT? tax strategy? defence - erm.. healthcare - erm... energy supplies - this is a critical matter in my eyes, if the Island could become energy self sufficient this would be a HUGE step towards true independence - hydroelectric dam at Sulby as was mooted on here before has to be a winner. what a complex issue.... Yes it is complex Size first. Yes the dependencies are small 60, 80 and 90 thousand for Guernsey IOM and Jersey but existing EU staes are small as well malta 400k, Luxembourg 470k, Cyprus 800k, Estonia 1.3 million, Slovenia 2 million, latvia 2.3m, Lithuania 3.5m Of potential applicants size is Turkey 72m, Serbia 7 m, Croatia 4.5 m, Bosnia 4m, Albania 3m, Kosovo 2m, Macedonia 2m, Mopntyenegro 800k, Iceland 300k Why should n't we stand on our own two feet. We would only need to have EU and UN representation and we contarct out everything else, ie consular etc, to UK, IRL or Neterlands, whoever will give best service/price. Are we saying we cannot run our own affiars, why not, especialluy when so much comes from EU via UK any way.Prepackaged. Why would we loose out on the Customs and VAT arrangment. Thyey can stay or be modified. After all the EU is a big version of the same thing at some levels. Even if we did then we wopuld get it back by raising and colecting all our own duties and taxes. Its called recverse charge and we might end up with even more Do we have to adopt the euro, if we were in and our markets were not restricted to just UK it might make sense anyway. How would it harm us? Andora, not in EU and some of the Balkan staes use it anyway already unofficially Defence from whom. Why do we need defending. We pay for UK to defend. maybe we could stop paying? Ireland may do it for less? Healthcare, what difference would it make. We buy the services provided in te UK. so we can continue to buy and explore Irish and further afield treatment. We would get the EU health card Energy what difference does independence or not make to your preffered solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Politician Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 An import duty would make you really popular with the ordinary local people ( the ones who are not rich) Er, why? Leaving the EU VAT area but introducing an equivalent rate of import duty would be effectively neutral for individuals (though not for currently VAT-registered corporations, of course). It would, however, ensure that the resulting revenues went to the island's coffers rather than a centralised pool for allocation. Or to spell it out for you, individuals ordering items from the UK or France or anywhere else would pay the net price (less VAT) at source, then the import duty on importation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The independence of crown dependencies, including the Isle of Man, is to be reviewed by the UK Parliament. Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/europe/8197234.stm How exciting the muppets in Tynwald may have to do some orginal thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellyup Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 An import duty would make you really popular with the ordinary local people ( the ones who are not rich) Er, why? Leaving the EU VAT area but introducing an equivalent rate of import duty would be effectively neutral for individuals (though not for currently VAT-registered corporations, of course). It would, however, ensure that the resulting revenues went to the island's coffers rather than a centralised pool for allocation. Or to spell it out for you, individuals ordering items from the UK or France or anywhere else would pay the net price (less VAT) at source, then the import duty on importation. Because you import practically everything. All islands are expensive for that reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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