[BBC News] Islands' autonomy to be reviewed

[Politician]

Bellyup, are you being deliberately obtuse? How would paying 17.5% import duty on an item be more expensive than buying the same item with 17.5% VAT added? (Clearly, I am once again using individuals, not VAT-registered traders, as an example.)

[Cambon]

Both Bermuda and the Cayman Islands have such duties, and they raise enough revenue that neither has income tax.

 

Bermuda has income tax at a rate of about 10%, but it is paid by the employer. The overall cost of an employee is taken into account when hiring. So in other words, there is no employee income tax, but it is paid.

[TheBloodyNine]

Bellyup, are you being deliberately obtuse? How would paying 17.5% import duty on an item be more expensive than buying the same item with 17.5% VAT added? (Clearly, I am once again using individuals, not VAT-registered traders, as an example.)

 

I think he is assuming we would 17.5% VAT plus what ever import duty is imposed.

[Politician]

You're probably right - even though it's now been explained to him twice, by two different people, that that's not the case in this scenario.

[John Wright]

Given where our economic interest lies and our shopping connections are there is no prospect in reallity, whether we are a Crown Dependency, independent, in or out of the EU of moving away from the Commom Purse/Customs and VAT collection and sharing agreement.

 

The proposal of total independence for VAT at our own rate will not work because if that happened all purchases from UK eiether by personal or internet shopping would end up wioth the VAT staying in UK

 

The present arrangement means we have that sum transferred

 

Charging everyone a 17.55 tax on imports would be a nightmare and waht about services. I pay for a barrister in London to advise me in IOM. Under the existing arrangement I pay 17.5% and get it back to IOM. Under that sort of new arrangement if we were out EU we would not be charged the VAT and not get it back or if we were in EU but had no agreement with UK we would pay it to UK and not recover it or have any benefit from it

 

|The prersent agrement is beneficial all round, simple to operate and at end of day not relevant to independence or EU membership

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Lets start negotiating now. As for the EU we must apply to see what terms would be on offer before we can make up our minds. There are going to be a lot of mini and midro staes wanting to apply in the balkans so we will not be out of step sizee wise.

 

How would Westminster response to the fait accompli of a declaration of independence or would this never happen? Would the Island's government have to embark on some tortuous negotiation?

 

The UK government has a recent history of being more opposed to national ambitions in Europe, can't imagine it would approve at all to have the Crown Dependencies just get on with it without them.

 

Is this one individual UK citizen's point of view or Lib Dem policy? If the latter does this mean they are opposed to devolution within the UK? IMO it sounds like a cranky individual trying to get a bit of air time in the Summer recess.

 

I do think it is part and parcel of this theme in liberal democratic policy to move towards a more socially just position. I am still unsure about how I think about the Island's tax status. If every country does operate some form of tax competition then it is simply that the Island does better than anyone else and shouldn't be criticised. However, if the Island's are something of an anomaly that allow the rich (far more so) than the poor to escape their social obligation, then from a social-liberal perspective the Isle of Man allows people to escape their responsibilities. And I can gather that this is something that they would obviously not approve of. But if the UK is just another country that has competitive taxation systems then why apply the double standards?

 

 

Politician -

could damage the world's oldest continuous democracy is nothing short of obscene.

 

You're kidding right? A democracy? The use of the term today renders the word rather meaningless nevermind throughout the history of Tynwald, but considering how the Manx people have been controlled/ruled throughout the past thousand years, it would be ridiculous to use that word. Continuous oldest parliament - fair enough, but so what - same sort of people at the top.

[Politician]

How would Westminster response to the fait accompli of a declaration of independence or would this never happen? Would the Island's government have to embark on some tortuous negotiation?

 

The UK government has a recent history of being more opposed to national ambitions in Europe, can't imagine it would approve at all to have the Crown Dependencies just get on with it without them.

 

As I understand it, the constitutional position is clear. All the island need do is conduct a referendum on the matter, and obtain more than 50% support for the proposition, and then the UK authorities would be duty bound to go along with it.

 

In fact, this has always been the position for UK territories around the world. In the case of Rhodesia, the only reason the government there opted for illegal UDI was that they refused to hold the referendum among all adults (they proposed only to do so for their main voter roll - the "A Roll" - which had an ethnic make-up of 95% whites and 5% blacks).

 

Politician -

could damage the world's oldest continuous democracy is nothing short of obscene.

 

You're kidding right? A democracy? The use of the term today renders the word rather meaningless nevermind throughout the history of Tynwald, but considering how the Manx people have been controlled/ruled throughout the past thousand years, it would be ridiculous to use that word. Continuous oldest parliament - fair enough, but so what - same sort of people at the top.

Quasi-democracy, then, if you prefer. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the island's parliament is considerably senior (in the literal sense) to its UK equivalent, and that we had the foundations of democracy when England was ruled by all-powerful kings and feudal lords.

[Tempus Fugit]

Bellyup, are you being deliberately obtuse? How would paying 17.5% import duty on an item be more expensive than buying the same item with 17.5% VAT added? (Clearly, I am once again using individuals, not VAT-registered traders, as an example.)

 

why would you pay 17.5% ?

 

I only pay 15%

 

 

do keep up at the back

[Politician]

Just using an example, Mr Fugit - being VAT-registered myself, I'm aware that the rate has temporarily dropped! But independence in direct taxation (notwithstanding that John is almost certainly correct) would have given us the opportunity of avoiding that reduction and the consequent plummeting of government income.

[Stu Peters]

The more I see from Westminster, the more I'd like this island to be devolved completely from anything to do with them. Seems like more smoke, mirrors and distraction from London though - with maybe an ounce of envy thrown in.

 

Independence - bring it on. If Declan wants to be President, can I be Air Vice Marshal (planes and girls to play with)?

 

 

ETA: I've got Allan Bell on Talking Heads on Friday - I'll ask him about it, but email me at work if anyone here on MF has any points or questions to raise.

[Evil Goblin]

"Kipper One, the Manx Head of State Official Aircraft " How much is a Dragon Rapide these days?

[Tempus Fugit]

Just using an example, Mr Fugit - being VAT-registered myself, I'm aware that the rate has temporarily dropped! But independence in direct taxation (notwithstanding that John is almost certainly correct) would have given us the opportunity of avoiding that reduction and the consequent plummeting of government income.

 

ok, be like Eire and just screw the locals a bit more

[bluemonday]

As I understand it, the current situation is that the UK is ultimately responsible for the good governance of the IOM - hence Fish Finger being foisted on us as local Liz rep

( Please correct me if I'm wrong )

 

Frankly the thought of the present bunch of incompetents gaining more power post independance fills me with dread.

 

Presumably the runway extension will have to be tripled in length to accomodate Kipper One, the Manx Head of State Official Aircraft which will doubtless be required as befits the novus ordo.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Quasi-democracy, then, if you prefer. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the island's parliament is considerably senior (in the literal sense) to its UK equivalent, and that we had the foundations of democracy when England was ruled by all-powerful kings and feudal lords.

 

Well I don't prefer, but it is not a big deal. Democracy means a people's government, people governing themselves. I don't know what it is about the political system that makes you think it is democratic, even today.

 

I can't comment too much on the very early days of Tynwald, but if you look at the situation of the Isle of Man throughout the medieval up to the 1950s, it was just like other colonial territories and less democratic than the Dominions of Canada and Australia if you consider the constitutional position of the Island in the early twentieth century.

What does it matter if the people are just heard by their masters? What does it matter if the House of Keys decide for their OWN benefit to adopt suffrage, for example, when that government has so little control over its own affairs? The age of a parliament is not important except for historical curiosity. I mean, the American's and French would appear to have a slightly more democratic government, but they are younger than the Island's.

[bluemonday]

ETA: I've got Allan Bell on Talking Heads on Friday - I'll ask him about it, but email me at work if anyone here on MF has any points or questions to raise.

 

Do Hezbollah or AQ Suicide Bombers do requests - for a donation or something?