KSF Megathread 2

[bellyup]

 

What a funny little man you are.

Keep trying to convince people that banks in the IOM aren't safe.

Keep trying to make people believe that they should not use banks as a safe and secure place to put money.

 

What an obtuse little idiot you are.

 

You keep ignoring the fact that he is trying to convince YOU that no bank is 100% safe and you went for a high risk investment. Once again...NO BANK IS 100% SAFE. It doesn't matter if the bank was here, across or on Mars.

 

But because you feel like you have been personally slighted by the IOM, you are on a one man crusade to tarnish the IOMs name.

 

Guess what you are the grain of sand shouting at the mountain.

 

 

HELLO GOVERNMENT OF THE ISLE OF MAN

 

You know you are wasting all this time and effort to advertise your little island as a financial centre?

 

Well you have a fifth column here who are doing their best to sabotage your best efforts.

 

Course they may well be telling the truth no bank in the IOM is safe so why will anyone bank there?

 

Try yappy dog owner ( how people become like their pets) reading what John wright posted a few days back .

 

I am not trying to tarnish the IOMs name at all - no need becasue people like you are doing it very well for yourselves.

[bellyup]

words

I think we told you this before - no-one here has anything against you or all the other depositors. We don't wish you bad, we don't hope you lose your money or suffer any kind of hardship. It's your own style and the way you portray yourself on here that annoyed people and lost you all genuine sympathy that existed.

 

Not sure who said it earlier, but you're not doing yourself or all the other depositors any favours with your antics.

 

Bollocks I could run around the country with I love the Isle of Man painted on my backside and it wouldn make any difference at all to me or to the other depositors.

Not one iota!

I am sorry you dont like my style - I have tried to temper it to the company - become more coarse and rude but its not really my way.

The fact is I make you feel uncomfortable you like these things nicely covered up.

Just like the SIB disaster - before your time young man you were still in kindergarten ( if that) but the depositors may of whom were Manx citizens will never forget that one.

[bellyup]

Thats what they call lying and libelous statements nowadays is it?

 

Ah bless....clutching at straws somewhat now arent ya....

 

Care to point out the inaccuracies and I would be happy to retract....

 

Alas I am not to blame for your lack of grey matter. Just get the beers in for Sunday and dont overtax the bit you have.

[MilitantDogOwner]

 

What a funny little man you are.

Keep trying to convince people that banks in the IOM aren't safe.

Keep trying to make people believe that they should not use banks as a safe and secure place to put money.

 

What an obtuse little idiot you are.

 

You keep ignoring the fact that he is trying to convince YOU that no bank is 100% safe and you went for a high risk investment. Once again...NO BANK IS 100% SAFE. It doesn't matter if the bank was here, across or on Mars.

 

But because you feel like you have been personally slighted by the IOM, you are on a one man crusade to tarnish the IOMs name.

 

Guess what you are the grain of sand shouting at the mountain.

 

 

HELLO GOVERNMENT OF THE ISLE OF MAN

 

You know you are wasting all this time and effort to advertise your little island as a financial centre?

 

Well you have a fifth column here who are doing their best to sabotage your best efforts.

 

Course they may well be telling the truth no bank in the IOM is safe so why will anyone bank there?

 

Try yappy dog owner ( how people become like their pets) reading what John wright posted a few days back .

 

I am not trying to tarnish the IOMs name at all - no need becasue people like you are doing it very well for yourselves.

 

Are you actually intelligence impared or are you being thick on purpose?

 

No bank, anywhere....IN THE WORLD...not specifically in the IOM is 100% safe.

 

You gambled. You lost. You fought the odds...and the odds won.

 

Maybe next time you'll be more prudent in your financial planning in future.

[bellyup]

 

What a funny little man you are.

Keep trying to convince people that banks in the IOM aren't safe.

Keep trying to make people believe that they should not use banks as a safe and secure place to put money.

 

What an obtuse little idiot you are.

 

You keep ignoring the fact that he is trying to convince YOU that no bank is 100% safe and you went for a high risk investment. Once again...NO BANK IS 100% SAFE. It doesn't matter if the bank was here, across or on Mars.

 

But because you feel like you have been personally slighted by the IOM, you are on a one man crusade to tarnish the IOMs name.

 

Guess what you are the grain of sand shouting at the mountain.

 

 

HELLO GOVERNMENT OF THE ISLE OF MAN

 

You know you are wasting all this time and effort to advertise your little island as a financial centre?

 

Well you have a fifth column here who are doing their best to sabotage your best efforts.

 

Course they may well be telling the truth no bank in the IOM is safe so why will anyone bank there?

 

Try yappy dog owner ( how people become like their pets) reading what John wright posted a few days back .

 

I am not trying to tarnish the IOMs name at all - no need becasue people like you are doing it very well for yourselves.

 

Are you actually intelligence impared or are you being thick on purpose?

 

No bank, anywhere....IN THE WORLD...not specifically in the IOM is 100% safe.

 

You gambled. You lost. You fought the odds...and the odds won.

 

Maybe next time you'll be more prudent in your financial planning in future.

 

 

Are you from the IOM or planet Zog?

 

Banks are generally considered 100% safe

 

They are not a gamble

 

Its not a horse race.

 

Now why dont you take your savings - if you have been prudent enough to save any instead of wasting it on yappy dog food out from under the mattress and book up a few sessions with the Shrink.

 

Judging from this forum you may have to wait a month or two.

[bellyup]

PS to yappy

 

When I put my savings into the Derbyshire Building Society it guaranteed them 100%

 

Now see below the Nationwide International Building Society which runs in exactly the same way from the ISLE of MAN today

 

Legal Undertaking

Nationwide Building Society guarantees to fully discharge the liabilities of its wholly owned subsidiary, in the highly unlikely event that Nationwide International Ltd is unable to meet those liabilities from its own assets.

 

BTW

 

The ISLE of MAN GOVERNMENT deposited 10 million pounds with KSF .

 

YUP TEN MILLION SMACKERS.

 

Was YOUR government GAMBLING?

 

If so it lost too and I daresay your taxes will go up and you wont get the VAT subsidy either quite soon , enjoy

[When Skies Are Grey]

Alas I am not to blame for your lack of grey matter. Just get the beers in for Sunday and dont overtax the bit you have.

 

Nice one...when all logical argument fails, resort to heckling....

 

I hope yor refund cheque gets lost in the post!

[entj]

It was not the IOM that guaranteed your deposit 100%, it was as you state, the Derbyshire, and then later KSF and the Icelandic government.

 

Never, ever did the IOM guarantee you 100% cover.

 

What the IOM did guarantee was a Compensation scheme (DCS) to pay out depositors a maximum of 50K sterling, should a bank on the IOM go "bust". When KSFIOM went bust, the DCS was (eventually) paid out. They also made some Early Payments whilst the SOA was being debated, which they were not even obliged to make. The IOM actually RAISED the level of compensation to this 50K amount AFTER the event. So one can say IOM actually exceeded it's duty of care to all depositors here.

 

Such duty of care was maybe not shown by the IOM's Financial Services Committee, but even if this were to be proved to be the case it does not state anywhere that depositors will ever get 100% recovery of their deposits via the IOM. The only government that guaranteed your deposit was Iceland. Are you on Iceforums too? Maybe you might want to divert some of your time to that website, assuming one exists!

 

Compared to what's happened to Icesave accounts held in Jersey and Guernsey (where no compensation scheme was in place, and no payments have been made to depositors, other than via the liquidation process), the IOM looks less shabby in its treatment of depositors in failed banks than the other crown dependencies - the only apples and apples comparison one can make with conviction.

 

I am sure you would do things differently in the future and want to warn others of your experience and there are no doubt shady deals in the background to all of this, but I really do not understand your relentless anti-IOM postings on this forum. You get no traction/support because you never actually state why the IOM must legally refund you. Whether the IOM "should" refund you for PR reasons is another matter, but it will not because it does not have to, and presumably thinks the PR-disaster you predict is never going to happen. But I'll type the important bit again. It (IOM) does not have to refund you 100%.

 

Enough!!! I challenge you to find one piece of evidence that the IOM is legally obliged to pay you 100% of your deposit back.

 

If the IOM does not have to refund you, you may not be happy about it, but it doesn't make it wrong. Coming on here moaning about it every day just makes you look sad and lonely, or at worst borderline Manx-Xenophobic. If you intention is to get support, your going about it the wrong way (but you must know that). If you're on here just to express your desire for the IOM to make you and others 100% complete and you won't shut up until they do, then I fail to see how much further you can take this without repeating yourself. And let's be honest, you've gone way past that point already.

 

As you presumably know, the UK media has zero to little sympathy for depositors claiming the IOM Treasury must bail out depositors who exceeded the island's compensation limit, for the very reasons above. Plus HM's Govt (even the new one) and the British Public in general have little sympathy for expats in general, I'm afraid. No need to say it, we know you are not looking for sympathy, but without rational argument and supporting evidence I don't know what angles you are taking other than the "hear my plea" or "pay up, then I'll shut up", neither of which work.

 

If the Bank of Ireland went tits up, up to 50K sterling of a deposit would be guaranteed by HM Govt if the deposit was made via UK Post Office account. This would be a payment made via the UK's equivalent of the IOM's DCS. Any amount above that is guaranteed 100% by the Bank Of Ireland (who run the Savings accounts at the PO). In the event they are unable to honour this, then Irish Government steps into their shoes. That's 100% guarantee of funds, but no guarantee how long it will take them to pay out that guarantee (1 year, 5 years, 100 years ??).

 

So, once I had received the 50K DCS payment from HM's Govt., I would be expecting the rest from the Irish Govt. for it was they who guaranteed me it in the first place. Replace HM Govt with "IOM Govt." and Irish Govt. with "Iceland Govt." and you might see where I'm going here.

 

In such a scenario, one would expect the UK Govt to guarantee all deposits (above or below 50K), as they did with Northern Rock etc. However the UK Govt is not obliged to refund anything over the 50K. Just the first 50K. I might be unhappy about that, and could think of many reasons why the UK Govt should refund my whole deposit if it were over 50K (using Northern Rock as a precedent), but ultimately I would know they never agreed to do so in the first place so I should not expect them to.

 

But please do not compare IOM to the UK. The former is a Crown Dependency with no precedent of guaranteeing 100% of deposits held in failed banks, just like the other crown dependencies Jersey and Guernsey (see above). The latter is sovereign state with a history of bailing out deposits made into UK-based banks/branches (Northern Rock, Ice Save). Compare IOM with either Guernsey or Jersey.

 

Tracing the above fictional scenario over your own personal tragedy makes me wonder why you cannot see your approach lacks credibility in the logic stakes and that you have zeroed in to the wrong target of your ire, who should by rights be the Icelandic govt and it's previous financial industry leaders and not the IOM.

[bellyup]

It was not the IOM that guaranteed your deposit 100%, it was as you state, the Derbyshire, and then later KSF and the Icelandic government.

 

Never, ever did the IOM guarantee you 100% cover.

 

I see that you are a new poster and may not have gone through what has gone previously nor in the previous KSF thread which ran for 100 pages before it was wiped by the moderators.

During the course of these threads you will see that I have never stated that the IOM guaranteed 100% safety or asked that the IOM refund to the depositors all their savings.

 

I was drawn to this thread by some unwise words - which I am sure are now regretted in which the depositors were described as 'greedy' the sheer injustice of these words spurred me to take part in this discussion otherwise the MF would have forever been a closed book to me - indeed one that I would not ever have cared to open.

The IOM has after long delays caused by the suspicious and tricky SOA which was unwanted - (even its creators couldn't explain it ) and to the detriment of the depositors - (and yet another injustice the depositors had to fight and have to pay for,) paid out its DCS.

 

This has been a lengthy and sad process for many who have lost their homes their families and for some sadly their lives.

 

I have for many years as an expat maintained a bank account in the IOM with the Derbyshire Building Society . This was a reputable institution like many others I had no reason to feel unsafe placing my savings there. Due to the difficulties in opening such accounts for expats i was not chasing interest rates - it was my bank and that was that.

When the DBS was sold I was uneasy and rang up and spoke to the Managing Director Mr Aiden Doherty many times explaining my position , being close to retirement and that the fact that i had never heard of KSF worried me.

He talked me round every time assured me that nothing had changed , ( literature also confirmed this) Moreover there was 100% guarantee which was offered as a comfort and reassurance to depositors. I knew that this was not made by the IOM but its was the words of the regulator Mr Aspden after the collapse that further incited my anger.

 

Firstly that the depositors were 'uneducated investors' that some banks should be 'allowed to fail' secondly that he didnt consider that the 100% guarantee was worth anything anyway. ( why did the IOMG put in 10 million then?)

Why then did he not express these fears prior to the collapse - why did he allow this 100% guarantee as an enticement to other cautious depositors? Why did he give the bank a license in the first place?

He is after all a regulator.

 

What the IOM did guarantee was a Compensation scheme (DCS) to pay out depositors a maximum of 50K sterling, should a bank on the IOM go "bust". When KSFIOM went bust, the DCS was (eventually) paid out. They also made some Early Payments whilst the SOA was being debated, which they were not even obliged to make. The IOM actually RAISED the level of compensation to this 50K amount AFTER the event. So one can say IOM actually exceeded it's duty of care to all depositors here.

 

I am glad that you added the word eventually . The IOM has been spectacularly incompetent during all these lengthy proceedings . They have squirmed and dithered and done their utmost to wiggle out of paying the DSC until they were sure it would cost them no skin and the early payments were anything but early.Lets not put too much polish on the halo!

 

Such duty of care was maybe not shown by the IOM's Financial Services Committee, but even if this were to be proved to be the case it does not state anywhere that depositors will ever get 100% recovery of their deposits via the IOM.

 

Quite the FSC has tried to blame the depositors ( uneducated depositors) it failed to take the case to the FSA it failed to ask for the monies frozen in the UK to be returned to the IOM it failed to do anything at all for the depositors as far as i can see.

I was present at the TSC in London when the question was put - at least 5 times to Mr Tony Brown - do you want help from the UK . Mr Brown caught like a rabbit in the headlights was stricken I thought he was ready to have heart failure - it nearly killed him to say no - its a Manx affair .

 

 

The only government that guaranteed your deposit was Iceland. Are you on Iceforums too? Maybe you might want to divert some of your time to that website, assuming one exists!

 

Naturally the depositors have written numerous letters to Iceland , some have been there but where is the IOM in all this ? Why has the IOM government not pressed the UK STRONGLY to pressure Iceland?

It is not for depositors to have to do everything it was after all a bank in and licensed by the IOM.

 

Compared to what's happened to Icesave accounts held in Jersey and Guernsey (where no compensation scheme was in place, and no payments have been made to depositors, other than via the liquidation process), the IOM looks less shabby in its treatment of depositors in failed banks than the other crown dependencies - the only apples and apples comparison one can make with conviction.

 

Excuses that is not the point.

 

I am sure you would do things differently in the future and want to warn others of your experience and there are no doubt shady deals in the background to all of this, but I really do not understand your relentless anti-IOM postings on this forum.

 

I have just explained why I dont like the sneering gloating way that the depositors have been spoken too and about.

I have no need to warn others - the rabid replies here are warning enough to anyone with half a mind .

There are many others - thousands in fact who are quite happy to not sing the praises of the IOM banking system .

I just post here as a reminder that we the depositors are still out there and hurting.

 

 

You get no traction/support because you never actually state why the IOM must legally refund you.

 

Because I have never said so - its only the less able forms of life on this forum that have said this.

I have suggested - and its a good suggestion - that the IOM could take a loan from the UK - i am sure the UK would have made some advantageous rates - possibly free to the IOM as a guilt offering and buy the KSF loan book.

This is a blue chip investment and the IOM has so many people who could manage it.

Its major payout years are 2011 and 2012 .

In fact the IOM would probably make a profit on it.

The money is nothing to a government , governments can afford to wait a couple of years but so much to individual depositors who cannot move on and in many cases are elderly.

This would not be a total payout - the loan book is only a part of what is owed - the rest is wrapped up in KSFUK.

However it would have been a gesture - and would have fairly instant results . The IOM itself still having nearly 5 million in KSF.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whether the IOM "should" refund you for PR reasons is another matter, but it will not because it does not have to, and presumably thinks the PR-disaster you predict is never going to happen. But I'll type the important bit again. It (IOM) does not have to refund you 100%.

 

As I have said I have never asked the IOM to refund me or anyone else. I have given a fair and plausible way they could help and saved their reputation.

 

The PR disaster has already happened sneering and gloating is noted - and no matter how many PR lies the IOM churns out this is the day of the internet and there are many many more like depositors who concentrate on the National papers.

Not little unimportant forums like this one.

 

 

 

 

 

If the IOM does not have to refund you, you may not be happy about it, but it doesn't make it wrong. Coming on here moaning about it every day just makes you look sad and lonely, or at worst borderline Manx-Xenophobic.

 

This just makes you look worried and hysterical.

Too late mate the damage is done.

If you are in the Financial business I would start looking at night school courses.

Teaching - now there's a nice steady job.

 

 

 

If you intention is to get support, your going about it the wrong way (but you must know that). If you're on here just to express your desire for the IOM to make you and others 100% complete and you won't shut up until they do, then I fail to see how much further you can take this without repeating yourself. And let's be honest, you've gone way past that point already.

 

How would you know if this is your first post?

 

 

 

 

As you presumably know, the UK media has zero to little sympathy for depositors claiming the IOM Treasury must bail out depositors who exceeded the island's compensation limit, for the very reasons above. Plus HM's Govt (even the new one) and the British Public in general have little sympathy for expats in general, I'm afraid. No need to say it, we know you are not looking for sympathy, but without rational argument and supporting evidence I don't know what angles you are taking other than the "hear my plea" or "pay up, then I'll shut up", neither of which work.

 

If I wanted a rational argument i wouldn't come on the MF looking for one.

 

 

If the Bank of Ireland went tits up, up to 50K sterling of a deposit would be guaranteed by HM Govt if the deposit was made via UK Post Office account. This would be a payment made via the UK's equivalent of the IOM's DCS. Any amount above that is guaranteed 100% by the Bank Of Ireland (who run the Savings accounts at the PO). In the event they are unable to honour this, then Irish Government steps into their shoes. That's 100% guarantee of funds, but no guarantee how long it will take them to pay out that guarantee (1 year, 5 years, 100 years ??).

 

Best close your a/c with BOI then.

 

 

In such a scenario, one would expect the UK Govt to guarantee all deposits (above or below 50K), as they did with Northern Rock etc. However the UK Govt is not obliged to refund anything over the 50K. Just the first 50K. I might be unhappy about that, and could think of many reasons why the UK Govt should refund my whole deposit if it were over 50K (using Northern Rock as a precedent), but ultimately I would know they never agreed to do so in the first place so I should not expect them to.

 

What if RBC goes bust?

Thats the IOM bank to you- i bet you would like your money repaid or would you like the BOE regulator to sneer at you and say some banks should be allowed to collapse?

 

But please do not compare IOM to the UK. The former is a Crown Dependency with no precedent of guaranteeing 100% of deposits held in failed banks, just like the other crown dependencies Jersey and Guernsey (see above). The latter is sovereign state with a history of bailing out deposits made into UK-based banks/branches (Northern Rock, Ice Save). Compare IOM with either Guernsey or Jersey.

 

Right the IOM has form with the SIB etc and it certainly has now that is why IOM deposits are down and everyone knows if a bank fails again the IOM will not be able to pay anything .Sneering and gloating wont help your economy will it?

 

 

Tracing the above fictional scenario over your own personal tragedy makes me wonder why you cannot see your approach lacks credibility in the logic stakes and that you have zeroed in to the wrong target of your ire, who should by rights be the Icelandic govt and it's previous financial industry leaders and not the IOM.

 

What is logical about blaming the depositors?

I have always said that the Icelandic Government and the UK government are equally at fault.

Why does it worry you anyway?

Its not you that has been hurt its me.

And think of the entertainment value the MF is getting - lets sneer at a KSF depositor by gum there's someone out there worse off than us

As you say this forum is nothing - but it is you know dont you think there are not Manx people out there too who lost money?

 

 

Meanwhile the IOM is STILL advertising itself as a SAFE and SECURE place for expats to put their money .

Do you think that is fair?

Should it not add a proviso- the IOM IS a safe and secure place to deposit your savings as long as its only a little bit and you don't want it back anytime soon if at all?

[Stu Peters]

Long whine deleted for the avoidance of bloat - but:

 

'Meanwhile the IOM is STILL advertising itself as a SAFE and SECURE place for expats to put their money .'

 

Would you subsantiate that, please?

[- Paul -]

Long whine

 

I'd hardly expect insouciance.

[Slim]

I have for many years as an expat maintained a bank account in the IOM with the Derbyshire Building Society .

 

Which you knew was an offshore account? So you knew it was only covered by the 15k dps at the time?

[bellyup]

 

'Meanwhile the IOM is STILL advertising itself as a SAFE and SECURE place for expats to put their money .'

 

Would you subsantiate that, please?

 

 

Will you put it on your radio station if i do?

 

Subsantitised i suppose?

[jimbms]

'Meanwhile the IOM is STILL advertising itself as a SAFE and SECURE place for expats to put their money .'

 

Would you subsantiate that, please?

 

 

Will you put it on your radio station if i do?

 

Subsantitised i suppose?

Unfortunately for you bellyache stu can only now report truthful facts

[Stu Peters]

I've said before in these interminable complaint threads that I genuinely feel sorry for Bellyup and anyone who has lost money they thought was secure, but like most posters I find his/her insults to the Isle of Man (rather than the UK or Iceland) tiresome and counter productive. I'm no expert in the ins and outs of the KSF collapse, but it seems that most people are getting their money back (eventually) and that IOMG acted very decently in sorting out the smaller investors so quickly. I've been shafted a few times over the years by people I thought I could trust, so I quite understand the desire to extract a pound of flesh.

 

Maybe someone can tell me - where did all the money end up? It didn't just disappear - someone has it, and clearly it's not the Isle of Man (if it were, Bellyup would have a very real reason to attack us). I'm an admitted thicko at economics - I also don't understand where all the money ended up in the banks bail-out. I know that sub-prime mortgages were the root of the problem, but that property portfolio (assuming the loans were secured against the property) didn't become totally worthless the day the mortgages were taken out - most will have been paid off to an extent and the land must still have a value?

 

Bellyup, I've had numerous emails from disgruntled KSF customers since the collapse, but they're usually such general rants that they're of little use, except in possibly giving me background questions to ask in interviews. Once the inquiry findings are made public they'll be covered in full, and anyone affected will be given a right to reply. Email me at work with your details and do my best to give you your day in the sun.