[BBC News] Manx Grand Prix races will start

[Chinahand]

He's not 'thriving' on anything.

I think he is thriving though, as i pointed out earlier he rushed on here as soon as the death was announced to make a smart arse comment about it, almost as if he was pleased it had happened

He certainly wasn't "pointing out the real cost of this 'entertainment' and the moral issues surrounding it".. :

Well here's to a safe and dry MGP

Yeah, in your dreams, someone killed at Kerrowmoar today. 38 year old Richard Bartlett. The carnage continues.

As with so many of these types of threads we spend most of it debating Keyboarder.

 

I don't really know what to make about the fuss he generates - there is no doubt he is cutting in his remarks, and lacking in sensitivity.

 

BUT I do think he is doing a good job in exposing the hypocrisy that is prevelent in much of the road racing community.

 

I do not think you can with a hand on heart say "here's to a safe ... MGP/TT/S100" - the courses are such that serious accidents are pretty much inevitable.

 

Given the accident rate and the number of competitors it is simply a numbers game - someone turning up on these Islands to race will not leave it in any state to function normally again - they'll either be dead or facing years of physiotherapy or whatever. And more often than not its more than one.

 

I am sure people will raise mountaineering or whatever, but I believe there is a fundamental difference. The Isle of Man people sponsor the road racing on the Island, we lower the barriers to entry and encourage something which will basically inevitably lead to deaths due to the size of the event we allow to occur.

 

I am right on the borderline between those who wish the TT etc to end and those who with a heavy heart endure its ever increasing death toll for cultural reasons I can only vaguely express.

 

What pushes me into the anti-camp is the fact I see no sign of the safety record improving. I do not see a willingness from the road racing community to acknowledge that the carnage is unacceptable, in fact quite the opposite, more often than not I see them justifying the lost lives I am sponsoring.

 

I can't accept that. I feel very strongly that the TT etc has got to start improving its safety record and rather than relying on platitudes about hoping things will be safe, and saying people know the risks.

 

We pay for the hospitals, the police, the coroners etc etc etc as well as sponsoring the event and handing over our public roads to the racers to use.

 

That is our commitment to the racing community and all I see in return is platitudes and justifications for basically inevitable deaths. That's not a fair exchange and I don't think it is sustainable.

 

PS: anyone know about insurance the bikers must have to race?

[Declan]

for the record, I joined this site on the back of a request from one of your Mods who didn't like the way things were going back in 2007 with regard to that topic. That Topic, which is as far as I'm concerned, dead and buried now thank god

 

It's not forgotten by me though. The reaction and removal of that thread is a low point in this forum. If a mod went to another forum to illicit support for the removal of that thread he should be named. Because that is despicable. Is he still a mod.

[Chinahand]

That thread, as you put it, also showed up very well the huge gulf between those sickened by basically inevitable deaths - which was the whole point of the sweepstake - and the racing community attempting to justify those deaths. Like Declan its not forgotten at all - KMC, Lee54, and Keyboarder keep it very much alive - and if that debate means fewer people will die on our shores all the better - that's the point.

[Frances]

Chinahand - one key point I think you overlook is the encouragement given to speedfreaks for the other 48weeks of the year - 40miles of road cannot have any traffic calming measures installed (not even basic safety features such as cats eyes), the curves on significant portions of this road have been made so that high speeds are possible yet in everyday use they feed into speed restricted sections, the roads during this period carry normal traffic - we see a RTA rate of over twice that expected - these (and many are innocent victims) are the uncounted cost of the TT and all that being road-race capital of the world implies

[KMC]

Post #61 Chinahand

 

A reasoned and balance reply Chinahand, and I mean that sincerely.

 

The safety record of these events is by far its worst enemy, and yes it would be nice to see vast improvements immediately to cut down the risks.

 

However, will they ever be able to cut down the risks enough to re gain acceptance by those that don’t accept the races for what they are at the moment? I doubt it, and I doubt we will ever eradicate the growing opposition to the events in doing so either.

 

I do believe that all parties have to accept that there are those that agree and follow/support/take part, and that there are also those that wish it would go away.

 

I’m a supporter of the events, but I’m not a supporter of the accidents and deaths that continue to occur, when in reality, and in these modern times, we should be seeing vast improvements in this area of safety year on year.

 

I certainly don’t have the answer, but like many others, I will continue to follow and support these races and the bodies entrusted in improving the safety of such as it’s what I have done for years, and like smoking, find the habit hard to give up easily.

[KMC]

Declan,

 

Name who and is who still a mod ??

 

Its part of life that certain people find certain things distasteful, and either air their views or do nothing.

 

That topic was not started by me, and certainly wasn't stopped or removed by me.

 

I posted within the thread just like many others did, but you and others continually keep bringing it up, and for what reason. That thread and its supporters nearly brought the forum down, not I and certainly not anyone else outside of the little mob at the time.

 

It was a sick subject - It glorified the deaths as a form of betting, and anyone with any thought or feelings could see it for what it was.

 

As said before, it's dead and buried now, but if you want to re live it all over again, then be my guest, but I'll play no part in it.

[bluemonday]

With the notable exception of the lady who IIRC came on and posted a few weeks ago regarding an accident ( my apologies to her if I've got this wrong but I believe she was directly connected to the person involved ) there have been no authentic points of view from the competitors themselves.

 

Merely camp followers, wannabees, fans? etc proclaiming their version of the truth.

 

There has been no coherent presentation of any substantial relevance, posts merely degenerate into an attack on KB. The great scapegoat.

 

Frankly I don't give a shit if you or anyone want to kill yourselves, just don't think or expect everyone else will automatically weep buckets.

 

It is an underfunded, amateur mess.

Safety seems to be the last consideration, making money seems to be the first.

And on that, some figures might be useful, accurate figures not the 'it is estimated' crap.

And full financial provision for the dead and wounded from the people who profit.

Not volunteer fund raising.

 

( No disrespect intended to Marshalls or Riders intended, both groups I respect. Also respect to the meds who time and time again do their best )

[ans]

That thread and its supporters nearly brought the forum down

 

No it didn't.

[KMC]

No, you are right, it didn't, but how also is it as Declan states " A Low Point " for the Forum ???

 

It was a topic that was discussed and removed, but it's removal had nothing to do with me. END OF

[KMC]

For Chinahand - And anyone else interested regarding Insurance etc.

 

As taken from the 2009 MGP Regs :

 

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE - INSURANCE

 

NO MOTORCYCLE may be ridden on open roads, not even to and from the starting point at any time,

without Road Traffic Act Insurance. This cover may be obtained from the Race Office.

 

Riders may wish to explore the possibilities of arranging cover through their own insurers for thispurpose.

 

Third party insurance for all riders and personal accident insurance for ACU and SACU licence holders during the races and official practices are included in the Entrance Fee.

 

Non ACU and SACU licence holders must have Personal Accident insurance as required by their own national federation (see Reg.8).

 

Insurance for increased benefits can be effected by application direct to Motor Sports Risk Services, Lockton Companies International Ltd., Hanover House, 30/32 Charlotte Street, Manchester, M1 4FD (tel: 0161-228-0721) or during signing-on periods at the Race Office, Grandstand, Douglas, Isle of Man.

 

Edited to add this :

 

INSURANCE/MACHINES RIDDEN ON PUBLIC HIGHWAY

 

The Organisers undertake to insure each rider, indemnifying him/her against any third party claims made arising out of the races or official practice, excluding claims by other riders, entrants, sponsors or mechanics.

 

Competitors who hold licences issued by the ACU or the SACU will be covered by Personal Accident insurance during official practice and racing, for the benefits detailed below. The cost of this Personal Accident insurance is included in the entry fee. Competitors holding licences issued by a FMN other than the ACU or SACU must submit a Starting Permission countersigned and stamped by the FMN which issued their licence.

 

This must confirm that, during the meeting and the official practice, they are insured against the risk of personal accident in accordance with the FIM Sporting Code but with additional cover for Medical Treatment and Repatriation costs, as follows:-

35,000 US Dollars - Death

70,000 US Dollars - Temporary Partial Disablement

184,000 US Dollars - Medical Treatment

74,000 U S Dollars – Repatriation costs

 

Alternatively this cover may be purchased from the event Insurance Brokers in the Race Office at the Grandstand during signing on periods.

 

The entry fee for these riders will be £165 as the cost of their personal accident insurance will not be paid by the Club.

 

For ACU and SACU licence holders, the organisers will arrange personal accident cover for the following benefits:

 

£10,000 GBP Death or permanent total disablement

£20,000 GBP Loss of, or loss of the use of, one or more limbs or eyes

 

Increased insurance benefits can be arranged either in the Race Office at the Grandstand (during the MGP

fortnight) or by application to:

Motor Sport Risk Services

 

During the whole of the time the competing motorcycles are in the custody of the Club the motorcycles will be

insured by the Club against damage by fire up to a maximum value of £25,000 per m

[Slim]

No, you are right, it didn't, but how also is it as Declan states " A Low Point " for the Forum ???

 

It was a topic that was discussed and removed, but it's removal had nothing to do with me. END OF

 

For me it was a high point, exposing stupidity and hypocrisy that still continues today.

[KMC]

Just like life then Slim - Highs and Lows

[ans]

No, you are right, it didn't, but how also is it as Declan states " A Low Point " for the Forum ???

 

So why say that in the first place? Making up things is never a good strategy in a debate.

 

Traffic and new member stats were an all time high for that period of the year incidentally. The thread generated a lot of awareness about our very existence. Some might say that's not really a low point.

[KMC]

It was a mistake as I misread Declans post.

 

But in any event, if the ratings were up, and membership increased, then you can thank me later

[Chinahand]

@KMC - over insurance the more relevent bit would seem to be this (see p6):

 

For ACU and SACU licence holders, the organisers will arrange personal accident cover for the following

benefits:

• £10,000 GBP Death or permanent total disablement

• £20,000 GBP Loss of, or loss of the use of, one or more limbs or eyes

Increased insurance benefits can be arranged either in the Race Office at the Grandstand (during the MGP

fortnight) or by application to:

Motor Sport Risk Services

Lockton Companies International Ltd.

Hanover House

Charlotte Street

Manchester

M1 4FD

Tel: +44 (0)161 228 0721 Fax: +44 (0)161 236 0995

www.locktonmotorsports.com E-mail: dawn.luby@uk.lockton.com

 

Those amounts are little short of ridiculous - they are totally inadequate for someone crashing at the speeds achievable on the course.

 

Sorry but it is an endictement of the MGP to state such insurance is sufficient and to bundle it in with the entrance fee. This is the reason that racers are left depending upon charity when things go wrong.

 

It is literally mindblowing for me that those responsible for organizing their races will allow people to take part with such low insurance cover. Its just damning and shows the disregard prevelent in the sport.

 

Edited to add: KMC you've added more information which is more up to date than that I've been able to find via 10 seconds on google. The amounts are still contemptable - interesting that they add all the stuff about USD after a yank gets into difficulty - but even so the amounts are totally insufficient and now create a stark divide between ACU etc licenced drivers and others.