Are The Entry Requirements For The Tt/mgp Too Lax?

[Mr. Sausages]

Here you go for starters.

 

"In 1991 American soldiers in the Persian Gulf War had a lower death rate than their counterparts who stayed home. More died of traffic accidents than from Iraqi weapons."

 

Interesting, but it's just a statement used to argue the point of view that the war was incredibly one-sided. It doesn't refer to any research. However I do remember there being extremely few US casualties in that particular battle (which didn't really last long enough to be called a war). But I doubt the soldiers were actually exposed to less risk than someone living a normal life.

 

Do you think the same could be said for the current war? Or any other war? Or is it, essentially, a statement which is backed up by freak statistics? You can hardly rely on that to argue that it's safer to spectate at the TT than not.

[Albert Tatlock]

Here you go for starters.

 

"In 1991 American soldiers in the Persian Gulf War had a lower death rate than their counterparts who stayed home. More died of traffic accidents than from Iraqi weapons."

 

Interesting, but it's just a statement used to argue the point of view that the war was incredibly one-sided. It doesn't refer to any research. However I do remember there being extremely few US casualties in that particular battle (which didn't really last long enough to be called a war). But I doubt the soldiers were actually exposed to less risk than someone living a normal life.

 

Do you think the same could be said for the current war? Or any other war? Or is it, essentially, a statement which is backed up by freak statistics? You can hardly rely on that to argue that it's safer to spectate at the TT than not.

No, but then again I didn't say that did I, I specifically said the gulf war - and trumped your Bullshit call. I remembered reading reports (DoD) mentioning this years ago.

 

It was my turn to use the pseudo-freaky-statistics - that's all.

[Mr. Sausages]

pseudo-freaky-statistics

 

AKA "bullshit". My call stands. I win.

[Chinahand]

I don't know if this helps or hinders my or Alberts arguement, but after 911 lots of Americans felt that flying was too dangerous and so drove instead. There was a measurable increase in road accidents as a result - flying even after including all the deaths from 911 is still vastly safer than driving - I seem to remember over 1500 additional deaths happened in the few months after 911 due to increased traffic deaths - the effect then petered out as perceptions of risk changed.

 

People calculate risks wrong all the time - we are really really bad at doing it. The pro-racing lot go on ad naseum that people now the risks, I really doubt it, there is innumerable evidence we get it wrong in most areas of life, why should we get it right in IOM road racing - 3 or so deaths per year over decades really seems excessive in my mind, and I genuinely suspect the accident figures are simply not presented accurately or publicly enough.

[macmannin]

3 or so deaths,a figure you just made up.

[jonnyrotten]

Couldn't those helicopters have been filming? Do we know for certain they were conveying casualties?

 

No. There was no filming of the MGP this year or last year. All 12 were conveying people to Nobles for one reason or another.

[WTF]

People calculate risks wrong all the time - we are really really bad at doing it. The pro-racing lot go on ad naseum that people now the risks, I really doubt it, there is innumerable evidence we get it wrong in most areas of life, why should we get it right in IOM road racing - 3 or so deaths per year over decades really seems excessive in my mind, and I genuinely suspect the accident figures are simply not presented accurately or publicly enough.

 

i think it may have been said already, but as we don't publicise the casualties and fatalaties with any great effort on a regular basis,and give accurate statistics,we can hardly be calling spectators retards if they don't get clearly given the info to make an informed decission. we get to hear about the 'sun' and 'smoking' all the time regarding the risks, it still doesn't stop some people ignoring the warnings, but the warnings are prominently out there. there is NO way that organisers are going to accurately and repeatedly point out the risks in black and white loud and clear to spectators for fear of driving them away. and without the spectators to allegedly bring in the £££ to the island, the event would soon fold. when something bad does happen it gets aired once or twice on the news and a glossy tribute appears in the local papers. we don't get told about the same incident all week and then again the following year to be sure we know. but for years!! if anything happened in the strang area we kept hearing about Ms Barton and Mr Green. 'and the grass was mowed in bradden today, near where SB and GG were killed, blah de blah de blah. but die racing here and you barely if ever get a mention unless you happen to hold a record that someone is close to breaking.

[Albert Tatlock]

People calculate risks wrong all the time - we are really really bad at doing it. The pro-racing lot go on ad naseum that people now the risks, I really doubt it, there is innumerable evidence we get it wrong in most areas of life, why should we get it right in IOM road racing - 3 or so deaths per year over decades really seems excessive in my mind, and I genuinely suspect the accident figures are simply not presented accurately or publicly enough.

 

i think it may have been said already, but as we don't publicise the casualties and fatalaties with any great effort on a regular basis,and give accurate statistics,we can hardly be calling spectators retards if they don't get clearly given the info to make an informed decission. we get to hear about the 'sun' and 'smoking' all the time regarding the risks, it still doesn't stop some people ignoring the warnings, but the warnings are prominently out there. there is NO way that organisers are going to accurately and repeatedly point out the risks in black and white loud and clear to spectators for fear of driving them away. and without the spectators to allegedly bring in the £££ to the island, the event would soon fold. when something bad does happen it gets aired once or twice on the news and a glossy tribute appears in the local papers. we don't get told about the same incident all week and then again the following year to be sure we know. but for years!! if anything happened in the strang area we kept hearing about Ms Barton and Mr Green. 'and the grass was mowed in bradden today, near where SB and GG were killed, blah de blah de blah. but die racing here and you barely if ever get a mention unless you happen to hold a record that someone is close to breaking.

Absolute rubbish. The number of incidents involving spectators can be counted on one hand, and all make the press, and all make the plan into trying to avoid things happening in the future.

 

Get a grip, of yourself, your perception of risk and the reality.

[Chinahand]

3 or so deaths,a figure you just made up.

Erm - no. I always try to ensure that I am as accurate as possible in what I post.

 

Check out here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaef...fatal_accidents

 

I've added the latest death so that makes a total of 227 deaths on the circuit in competition or practice.

 

Here's the cumulative total - do you see any sign of improving safety in this graph - and lets not pretend killing 3.4 people per year in the millenium decade is such an improvement on killing 4.2 competitors per year in the 1990s

 

 

Here are the average yearly deaths broken down by decade - I corrected the figures to account for the fact that there have only been 8 years of competion since 2000 due to the cancelation from foot and mouth (and for the cancellations due to the Wars!).

 

 

We've had on average 3.4 deaths per year since 2000 - so my statement was pretty much bob on - wonder why that was - oh because I check before I post!

[Bobbie Bobster]

Couldn't those helicopters have been filming? Do we know for certain they were conveying casualties?

No. There was no filming of the MGP this year or last year. All 12 were conveying people to Nobles for one reason or another.

But at least one and possibly more were for reasons totally unconnected with the racing (apart from the obvious issue of lack of access to certain areas bordering the course)

[macmannin]

You said over decades,not since 2000.

[Chinahand]

You said over decades,not since 2000.

Erm - what - are you innumerate? Since 1950 199 people have died - that is on average 3.37 people every year for 59 or so years.

[andrew]

Xpert pointed out that the helicopter was continuously coming into Nobles during racing on Friday - I've looked at Manx Radio and there is some indication of the accidents - the leading rider crashed out, but the coverage basically glosses over the accidents concentrating on the results.

 

How many riders sustained injury over the week of racing?

 

I think the injuries are massively under-reported - so it is difficult for both riders and spectators to calculate the risks involved - the result: continuing levels of accidents year in and year out.

 

If riders come off their machines during the TT or MGP then they are usually taked by one of the 2 helicopters to Nobles to be checked over - even if there doesn't appear to be any injuries. They may have some internal bleeding, or have broken an arm or leg which is being held together by their leathers. It is better for them to discover this in A&E rather than out on the course. If they are fine then out the door they go.

 

The organisers fo the MGP do publish those who have crashed in their official press releases sent to the media. Obviously it is up to the media if they decide to publish them.

Friday afternoon

There were a number of incidents during this afternoons race, non serious.

Four riders were taken to Nobles Hospital by AirMed; Paul Lawson (Mountain Box), Noel Patterson (Sulby Bridge), Frank James (approaching Sulby Bridge), Ryan McCay (Mountain Box).

Adrian Logue was off at Quarter Bridge and taken to hospital by ambulance for a check up.

 

Wednesday

Only one minor incident today, in the Junior Manx Grand Prix, Ivan Lintin slipped off his machine at Sulby Bridge, without injury and is OK.

No other incidents were recorded in the Classic race, Practice Lap or Vintage Parade.

 

Tuesday

There were a number of incidents during today's combined Newcomers and Post Classic Races.

Roy Richardson, Leo Fitzgerald and Chris Moore were all Air Med to Nobles after separate incidents. Roy was off at Glen Tramman and is in ward one, under observation for the night. Leo Fitzgerald has arm injuries and Chris Moore has a broken collar bone and has been treated and discharged.

Michael Ellis was off at Windy, whilst Roger Hurst came off at the Gooseneck. Both are OK, as were Darren Hughes (Sulby Bridge), Phil McGurk and Peter Hindley (Gooseneck).

Plus a seperate release about Richard Bartlett.

 

From having spoken to riders, they are all well aware of the risks they take out on the course. Spectators may be a different matter though.

 

Also with regards to helicopters going into Nobles, the Ambulance service have their own during TT and MGP fortnight (as especially during TT the roads a much more busier) so that makes 2 helicopters for the competitors, and a third for civilians. So every time you see a helicopter going in, it may have nothing to do with the racing - simply Mrs Smith who has slipped on a banana skin and broken her leg.

[WTF]

People calculate risks wrong all the time - we are really really bad at doing it. The pro-racing lot go on ad naseum that people now the risks, I really doubt it, there is innumerable evidence we get it wrong in most areas of life, why should we get it right in IOM road racing - 3 or so deaths per year over decades really seems excessive in my mind, and I genuinely suspect the accident figures are simply not presented accurately or publicly enough.

 

i think it may have been said already, but as we don't publicise the casualties and fatalaties with any great effort on a regular basis,and give accurate statistics,we can hardly be calling spectators retards if they don't get clearly given the info to make an informed decission. we get to hear about the 'sun' and 'smoking' all the time regarding the risks, it still doesn't stop some people ignoring the warnings, but the warnings are prominently out there. there is NO way that organisers are going to accurately and repeatedly point out the risks in black and white loud and clear to spectators for fear of driving them away. and without the spectators to allegedly bring in the £££ to the island, the event would soon fold. when something bad does happen it gets aired once or twice on the news and a glossy tribute appears in the local papers. we don't get told about the same incident all week and then again the following year to be sure we know. but for years!! if anything happened in the strang area we kept hearing about Ms Barton and Mr Green. 'and the grass was mowed in bradden today, near where SB and GG were killed, blah de blah de blah. but die racing here and you barely if ever get a mention unless you happen to hold a record that someone is close to breaking.

Absolute rubbish. The number of incidents involving spectators can be counted on one hand, and all make the press, and all make the plan into trying to avoid things happening in the future.

 

Get a grip, of yourself, your perception of risk and the reality.

 

which is why in an earlier post i said the risks are less now ( because when a speccy gets clobbered something happens about it ) i do have a perception of the risks, and it is very minor, and until it happens to yourself it gets ignored. maybe others too now the minor risk and choose to ignore it and take the chance too, but i don't think the it can be said with absolute accuracy that 'everybody' knows the risks, and they should be allowed to choose.

[WTF]

You said over decades,not since 2000.

Erm - what - are you innumerate? Since 1950 199 people have died - that is on average 3.37 people every year for 59 or so years.

 

nobles operating tables have probably got a worse number than that??