Religion - The Bible. Real Or Not Real?

[The Voice of Reason]

I don't know. And that's ok, because we simply might not know yet. Who knows what lay before the Big Bang. Maybe we can't really consider what was before the Big Bang with respect to the measurement of time and using the laws of physics for this universe or reality. There are too many 'don't knows'. But simply because I cannot account for how the Big Bang happened doesn't mean it is common sense to conclude that a being created it. As an aside, if the supreme being created everything, who created it (him/her)?

 

Sorry LDV " I don't know" doesn't really cut it. To me there is no other explanation and I can't see a time when there will be. My point is not who created this supreme being (and by extension who created him/her. and who created them etc,etc?) Something started all this, something/being that was always there.

I know it's a difficult concept (certainly for me it is) but that has to be the only explanation.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

'Don't know' doesn't cut it? Do you NEED all the answers or are you too impatient to wait? Just because we don't have the answers and never will doesn't mean that we need to fill in the gaps with ideas of a supreme being, which are not that logical to me at all but seem an easy thing to use because our society is so accustomed to believing in the supernatural.

 

If you don't understand something like the Big Bang and do not understand that there may other unknown possibilities as to how the universe AS WE KNOW IT came about, but are simply focusing on an issue of creation because you see the Big Bang as being some beginning of everything, then it is important to ask who created this Supreme Being. If you look at things in terms of beginnings then where did the being come from?

 

Something started all what? You are talking in linear terms. How do you know that time is even relevant when considering what came before the Big Bang?

[Gladys]

Reminds me of an exchange from the King & I where the 'scientific' King was arguing against Anna's Christian beliefs on the creation of the world and how 'illogical' that it could be created in 6 days. She replied something along the lines of the Bible was a book written by men of belief who were trying to explain creation, whether it took 6 days or 6 centuries it was still something miraculous. Kind of hard to argue against that reconciliation of creationist and evolutionary theories.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Maybe it is easy. Miraculous implies something outside of the laws of the nature or what is considered possible. I don't believe in miracles.

However, it is quite a different thing to marvel and stand in awe of the everything around us.

Did you read the book or watch the movie? Is it really good?

[The Voice of Reason]

'Don't know' doesn't cut it? Do you NEED all the answers or are you too impatient to wait? Just because we don't have the answers and never will doesn't mean that we need to fill in the gaps with ideas of a supreme being, which are not that logical to me at all but seem an easy thing to use because our society is so accustomed to believing in the supernatural.

 

If you don't understand something like the Big Bang and do not understand that there may other unknown possibilities as to how the universe AS WE KNOW IT came about, but are simply focusing on an issue of creation because you see the Big Bang as being some beginning of everything, then it is important to ask who created this Supreme Being. If you look at things in terms of beginnings then where did the being come from?

 

Something started all what? You are talking in linear terms. How do you know that time is even relevant when considering what came before the Big Bang?

 

 

I think it is part of the human condition that we seek an answer to the questions why are we here, how did we get here? It,s not a case of being impatient to wait, I could live to be a million years old (well I won't) and not have an answer.

You weren't listening - repeat if you ask who created the Supreme being, then you ask who created him/her and so on.

I'm genuinely interested in your take on all this but to say "I don't know" without offering any alternative is fine just say so.

 

But it is similar to when I previously asked you what should happen to "gay-bashers" if they were not to go through the due process of law you were unable to come up with any concrete alternatives just some wishy washy platitudes. That is why I say "I don't know" doesn't cut it.

[Gladys]

Miraculous, marvellous, it's all linguistic. But no matter what the truth is, the jaw-dropping truth is that this world, and the universe, is the result of an unintelligible (it is pretty unintelligible to me as is, let alone how it got there) combination of events, whether there is a higher being within that, who knows?

 

I've seen the film, obviously, but saw the stage version at the Gaiety and when that exchange was uttered, I thought that was the simplist reconciliation you could ever hope for.

 

After that, I think the Bible is really a collection of folklore with a bit of history, but it sought to explain the inexplicable so has been venerated and considered as the code to all things, at the time. I think most people wouldn't take issue with the ten commandments, although they may take issue with the strictures set out in Leviticus and elsewhere. But, perhaps, at the time they were written they were believed as necessary to safeguard the society and its health (much has to do with preserving health at the time such as what you can eat, given the state of scientific and medical knowledge at the time, perhaps that was all they could do).

 

The sad thing is the Bible, along with other religious writings, have been applied to current society without taking into account the greater knowledge we have of science and nature, even interpreted and contorted to meet less than honourable objectives and have been the justification for immense cruelty and suffering. That is where I take huge exception.

 

I am not a fan of religion, far from it, I suspect anyone with deep (extreme) religious beliefs. But you have to admit, though, the Bible does have some rip-roaring stories.

[The Voice of Reason]

I've seen the film, obviously, but saw the stage version at the Gaiety and when that exchange was uttered, I thought that was the simplist reconciliation you could ever hope for.

 

 

Which film was that Gladys?

[Miss Roo]

Reminds me of an exchange from the King & I

I loved that film!

[Chinahand]

" I don't know" doesn't really cut it. To me there is no other explanation and I can't see a time when there will be. My point is not who created this supreme being (and by extension who created him/her. and who created them etc,etc?) Something started all this, something/being that was always there.

I know it's a difficult concept (certainly for me it is) but that has to be the only explanation.

Your making some very strong statements here VOR - I find it does not necessarily hold that there has to be a single creator that has ALWAYS to be there. Why has creation got to be the product of an intelligence - why not a bumbing fool who didn't know what he was doing. Are you saying you can't see any time when you might consider that - leave behind monotheistic ideas of omnipotence and think of Trickster. You seem to see an omnipotent creator God as the well spring of all, who's existence cannot be explained. But why not a fool?

 

And if a fool, why not a potential - if you are into Chinese mysticism you could say a Dao.

 

And why always one - people go on about infinite regress - but I don't think its necessary that every cause has to have an earlier cause - simply two things may happen at once - ying and yang, matter and anti-matter, creation and distruction, coyote and crow.

 

Physicists are getting pretty sophisticated with exploring ideas of nothing (

for just one!), they are working on multiple dimensions etc etc etc.

 

I find having to place a man with a beard and an ET finger at the start of all this a huge failure of our imagination which is so culturally dependent on our monotheistic tradition as to be laughable.

 

And to be blunt this is only a tiny tiny subset of what a religion is - religion embues the prime mover with all sorts of characteristics - the omnipotence, omnibenevelence, omniscience of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. He has morals and doesn't like certain orifices being used for certain behaviours.

 

That to me is really where religion is a live issue - not as the idea of some remote deist entity - but as a thing which goes and makes people knock on doors and demand curiculum changes.

 

And as far as I can see all you've got are lots and lots of people saying all sorts of contradictory stuff and justifying it because they think its come from a god. They've no more evidence than that, and much of what they say is contradictory theological cods whallop - This omniscient omnipotent God HAS to end the world, and has to judge everybody and has to send those who do not meet the standard to hell or hades or into the flames or to wail and nash their teeth while he can save those who do what he wants them to do etc etc etc.

 

It makes me shudder, but I'll await DjDan and Marcus Aurelius to try to explain how its all wonderful and good.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think it is part of the human condition that we seek an answer to the questions why are we here, how did we get here?

Absolutely, so why make an assumption when there is no evidence? Are you interested in the truth?

 

It,s not a case of being impatient to wait, I could live to be a million years old (well I won't) and not have an answer.

That may very well be the case

 

You weren't listening - repeat if you ask who created the Supreme being, then you ask who created him/her and so on.

Don't know what you mean?

 

I'm genuinely interested in your take on all this but to say "I don't know" without offering any alternative is fine just say so.

If I don't know, then I don't know. There are theories, but are just theories. Physicists and cosmologists are still working on stuff like this. Don't think that because I don't know means that I believe that it is not important to try and find out what exists outside of the universe, what other universers there may be, or what came before the Big Bang. All I am saying is that it doesn't appear logical to come to a conclusion that there is a Supreme Being, especially when in your posts you seem to basing your understanding on the question of the Big Bang being a beginning for everything. It is only a beginning for our universe. Outside of that there are no answers as yet to how it came about and what from.

 

But it is similar to when I previously asked you what should happen to "gay-bashers" if they were not to go through the due process of law you were unable to come up with any concrete alternatives just some wishy washy platitudes. That is why I say "I don't know" doesn't cut it.

It most certainly isn't anything to do with your earlier question. You posed a political question to me about the role of the police in a particular aspect of their function - in respect of what I would do and whether a police presence would be a deterrent. I answered that from what I remember. And it is a problematic issue, I'll admit. I'd be happy to embellish further if you want to drag the thread up. But that was a political matter.

 

Sorry you have to face such a world VOR, but there are plenty of unknowns in so many aspects of our lives. But I am interested in the truth. I won't therefore come to conclusions on things on matters that I cannot possibly know.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think most people wouldn't take issue with the ten commandments

I would

The sad thing is the Bible, along with other religious writings, have been applied to current society without taking into account the greater knowledge we have of science and nature, even interpreted and contorted to meet less than honourable objectives and have been the justification for immense cruelty and suffering. That is where I take huge exception.

Yes, I agree. The fact is that this tome has come from a time when life was short and cruel and where people had quite different morals than we do now. The only unfortunate thing is that people are so ready to accept masters such as God to direct them and judge them. We are used to being submissive and being fine with that. It is a shame that us humans have not 'grown up' enough to grow out of believing in such things.

I am not a fan of religion, far from it, I suspect anyone with deep (extreme) religious beliefs. But you have to admit, though, the Bible does have some rip-roaring stories.

Definitely, but the Harry Potter series seems more interesting - I love a bit of magic. And Norse, Ancient Egyptian, Celtic, and Ancient Greek mythology do seem more fun.

[Gladys]

See your point, LDV, but I do believe that the Bible is one of the great ancient writings albeit it was probably 'updated' in medieval, and again in Victorian, times to suit a particular purpose at the time. I would, however, class it alongside the ancient Greek, Norse etc. mythology; IMHO, that is where it should be.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I agree.

[The Voice of Reason]

" I don't know" doesn't really cut it. To me there is no other explanation and I can't see a time when there will be. My point is not who created this supreme being (and by extension who created him/her. and who created them etc,etc?) Something started all this, something/being that was always there.

I know it's a difficult concept (certainly for me it is) but that has to be the only explanation.

Your making some very strong statements here VOR - I find it does not necessarily hold that there has to be a single creator that has ALWAYS to be there. Why has creation got to be the product of an intelligence - why not a bumbing fool who didn't know what he was doing. Are you saying you can't see any time when you might consider that - leave behind monotheistic ideas of omnipotence and think of Trickster. You seem to see an omnipotent creator God as the well spring of all, who's existence cannot be explained. But why not a fool?

 

And if a fool, why not a potential - if you are into Chinese mysticism you could say a Dao.

 

And why always one - people go on about infinite regress - but I don't think its necessary that every cause has to have an earlier cause - simply two things may happen at once - ying and yang, matter and anti-matter, creation and distruction, coyote and crow.

 

Physicists are getting pretty sophisticated with exploring ideas of nothing (

for just one!), they are working on multiple dimensions etc etc etc.

 

I find having to place a man with a beard and an ET finger at the start of all this a huge failure of our imagination which is so culturally dependent on our monotheistic tradition as to be laughable.

 

And to be blunt this is only a tiny tiny subset of what a religion is - religion embues the prime mover with all sorts of characteristics - the omnipotence, omnibenevelence, omniscience of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. He has morals and doesn't like certain orifices being used for certain behaviours.

 

That to me is really where religion is a live issue - not as the idea of some remote deist entity - but as a thing which goes and makes people knock on doors and demand curiculum changes.

 

And as far as I can see all you've got are lots and lots of people saying all sorts of contradictory stuff and justifying it because they think its come from a god. They've no more evidence than that, and much of what they say is contradictory theological cods whallop - This omniscient omnipotent God HAS to end the world, and has to judge everybody and has to send those who do not meet the standard to hell or hades or into the flames or to wail and nash their teeth while he can save those who do what he wants them to do etc etc etc.

 

It makes me shudder, but I'll await DjDan and Marcus Aurelius to try to explain how its all wonderful and good.

 

 

Chinahand you obviously have the upper hand on me in terms of research on this matter. but I think in a way this can obfuscate things, maybe by thinking too much.

I think in this subject one has to rely on one one's gut feelings (soul?) I certainly do not subscribe to the beard and the ET finger thing, nor the hell or hades ideas. Nor, as previously stated, do I feel the need to "worship" what has created us.

 

The omnipotent being may well be a fool, but to have created all this suggests a certain level of intelligence.

 

I haven't studied Chinese mysticism but as a humble human being I have asked myself all the questions regarding our existence and the conclusion I am drawn to (repeat) that there has to be some presence that has always been there.

 

That may be illogical but so are eveloutionary (sp) theories, in that I believe there has to have been something/someone there "from time immemorial" for all this to happen. That someone/something may well have been a fool to have produced something so flawed as we are now but maybe in the future all will be redeemed and it's part of the growing up process. Very little designed works perfectly immediately.

 

Anyway, until someone can demonstrate beyond any doubt I stick to my beliefs. They don't rule my life, I don't try and force them on anybody, and rarely are such thoughts in the forefront of my mind. I try and enjoy my life, however it has come about.

Humbly suggest we all should do the same.

[Bananaman]

obfuscate

 

 

Was that word necessary?

 

Just say confuse.

 

Bloody obfuscate?

 

 

Silly, Lala will pick up on it and use it totally out of context now.

 

Won't you Lala.