[BBC News] Civil staff reject zero pay rise

[Tugger]

I don't have a problem with the whole of the Civil Service (a point made expressly in my last post), just those ones who are being paid more than they deserve. It's analogous to an employer (which I am) having a problem with a member of staff who isn't pulling their weight, with one crucial exception: I can fire that employee.

[manxy]

I don't have a problem with the whole of the Civil Service (a point made expressly in my last post), just those ones who are being paid more than they deserve. It's analogous to an employer (which I am) having a problem with a member of staff who isn't pulling their weight, with one crucial exception: I can fire that employee.

Fair point and I can see where you're coming from as I've seen a few cases of mismanagement or cases of laziness etc

[drivemyself]

I don't have a problem with the whole of the Civil Service (a point made expressly in my last post), just those ones who are being paid more than they deserve. It's analogous to an employer (which I am) having a problem with a member of staff who isn't pulling their weight, with one crucial exception: I can fire that employee.

 

Civil servants can be fired, quite a few get dismissed every year for various breaches of the (extensive) civil service regulations. Dismissal is a last resort (as should always be the case, someone is getting their livelihood taken away after all), but the sanction can be and is used more regularly than you might imagine.

 

Every civil servant also has targets, objectives and requirements set out to them in a review that happens annually at least, and ideally every three months - if these targets are not met then the 'automatic' progression up the pay scale doesn't happen (so it's not automatic at all, as Dave Hedgehog seems to think it is).

 

It's also disengenous to compare relatively small employers with an organisation as large as the IOMG, any large employer, public or private, tends to require more in the way of rules and regulations to ensure consistency and fairness across the organisation.

 

By all means let's have the debate, but let's get the basic facts straight, yes?

[P.K.]

By all means let's have the debate, but let's get the basic facts straight, yes?

I couldn't agree more.

 

There are about 7,500 Public Servants on Mannin, which is where Albert get's his "25% of the workforce" figure from. Of those about 2,000 are Civil Servants. The rest are "Waste Disposal and Dispersion Executives", "Suppliers of Culinary Expertise to the Manx Education System", "High Visibilty Young Pedestrian Managers" and so forth.

 

Now I first put this table up on here back in May:

 

Remuneration Band 2009/2008

 

£225,000 - £249,999 1/0

£200,000 - £224,999 3/1

£175,000 - £199,999 13/8

£150,000 - £174,999 12/13

£125,000 - £149,999 21/16

£100,000 - £124,999 34/28

£75,000 - £99,999 87/53

£50,000 - £74,999 591/413

 

There wasn't anything like this response and certainly a lot less anger, bitterness and venom than seems to have been posted on here. If you don't believe me check it out for yourself here. So what has changed in just a few short months?

 

Personally I think the Public Servants/Civil Service should be a lot more circumspect. Because their actions have brought to the fore just what a comfortable existence they have compared to the private sector in these difficult times. And they really rub our noses in it because they are just SO smug and self-assured that they think they can go on strike. Why? Because an annual pay rise seems to be considered by them as a "right". Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is taking the piss.

 

There is a little clue about their "rights" in this post:

 

Every civil servant also has targets, objectives and requirements set out to them in a review that happens annually at least, and ideally every three months - if these targets are not met then the 'automatic' progression up the pay scale doesn't happen (so it's not automatic at all, as Dave Hedgehog seems to think it is).

My interpretation: "You get a pay rise every year just for doing the day job!"

 

In this day and age - completely unacceptable...

[Dave Hedgehog]

Every civil servant also has targets, objectives and requirements set out to them in a review that happens annually at least, and ideally every three months - if these targets are not met then the 'automatic' progression up the pay scale doesn't happen (so it's not automatic at all, as Dave Hedgehog seems to think it is).

 

I worked there for 7 years. I know well how the appraisal system works.

 

For the majority of people there it is simply a box ticking exercise and serves no purpose other than to get a pay increase

[manxy]

By all means let's have the debate, but let's get the basic facts straight, yes?

I couldn't agree more.

 

There are about 7,500 Public Servants on Mannin, which is where Albert get's his "25% of the workforce" figure from. Of those about 2,000 are Civil Servants. The rest are "Waste Disposal and Dispersion Executives", "Suppliers of Culinary Expertise to the Manx Education System", "High Visibilty Young Pedestrian Managers" and so forth.

 

Now I first put this table up on here back in May:

 

Remuneration Band 2009/2008

 

£225,000 - £249,999 1/0

£200,000 - £224,999 3/1

£175,000 - £199,999 13/8

£150,000 - £174,999 12/13

£125,000 - £149,999 21/16

£100,000 - £124,999 34/28

£75,000 - £99,999 87/53

£50,000 - £74,999 591/413

 

There wasn't anything like this response and certainly a lot less anger, bitterness and venom than seems to have been posted on here. If you don't believe me check it out for yourself here. So what has changed in just a few short months?

 

Personally I think the Public Servants/Civil Service should be a lot more circumspect. Because their actions have brought to the fore just what a comfortable existence they have compared to the private sector in these difficult times. And they really rub our noses in it because they are just SO smug and self-assured that they think they can go on strike. Why? Because an annual pay rise seems to be considered by them as a "right". Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is taking the piss.

 

There is a little clue about their "rights" in this post:

 

Every civil servant also has targets, objectives and requirements set out to them in a review that happens annually at least, and ideally every three months - if these targets are not met then the 'automatic' progression up the pay scale doesn't happen (so it's not automatic at all, as Dave Hedgehog seems to think it is).

My interpretation: "You get a pay rise every year just for doing the day job!"

 

In this day and age - completely unacceptable...

Looking at the chart PK, I found it staggering to see so many high valued posts move up in a year and can understand some of the resentment that this issue has raised.

For those who haven't had a pay increase, then that can't be right as costs for food, utilities and a multitude of other essentials will continue to rise and when does it stop, .......when a persons on benefits?

How much of this problem is caused by immigration or maybe it doesn't, I don't know?

 

The gap between the two needs to be addressed, but how?

 

To reduce my wage would mean that I have to consider down sizing to a smaller property and I realise that some people would take pleasure from that and who knows, maybe the hint and enjoyment of a few seconds thrill of thinking 'serves her right', but what have I done wrong? I go to work to earn a living to pay for my needs as per Maslow's theory. Maslow's theory clicky and yes, I do get enjoyment of thinking positive and trying to do a good job. Is that wrong?

 

So I've rejected zero pay rise and do so to keep my lifestyle at least on par, but I won't grumble if the private sector leaps ahead of me as they have needs too.

[mona]

As a particularly affluent society, the Isle of Man has various means of dissipating the wealth. Employing so many people in the Civil Service is one way, irrespective of whether or not there is any return or worth in that employment.

 

Over the past decade or so it has become abundantly clear that the Isle of Man can no longer sustain this level of remuneration to its inhabitants (er, looking at that list, how many people are paid over £1000 a week from the public purse.... )

 

When our Island goes bankrupt, then it is the Government Employees who have been sooooo highly paid who will need to do some inward thinking.

 

Edited to add:

I was a Civil Servant for the best part of 10 years. You kinda learn how 'things' work. Common sense should surely tell the Isle of Man Civil Service that the difference between what they take home in the hipper and what they put back into our society, has been too great to get away with for much longer.

[slinkydevil]

To reduce my wage would mean that I have to consider down sizing to a smaller property and I realise that some people would take pleasure from that and who knows, maybe the hint and enjoyment of a few seconds thrill of thinking 'serves her right', but what have I done wrong? I go to work to earn a living to pay for my needs as per Maslow's theory. Maslow's theory clicky and yes, I do get enjoyment of thinking positive and trying to do a good job. Is that wrong?

 

So I've rejected zero pay rise and do so to keep my lifestyle at least on par, but I won't grumble if the private sector leaps ahead of me as they have needs too.

 

It's not a reduction in wage it's just not an increase. No offense but that's what I'm facing, no pay rise last year or this year, I don't hate my employer though and realise it's a business decision to stay afloat through difficult economic times.

 

I don't think anyone would take pleasure in what you say about downsizing but that's the reality a lot of us face if we have to. I doubt you would have to downsize though, unless you have been living right at the edge of your means with no give in your finances. My issue is the threats of strikes if you don't get what you want, great! I can't do that. Instead I've just had to cutback in other areas to cope with increases in fuel bills, food etc etc.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

My issue is the threats of strikes if you don't get what you want, great! I can't do that.

I am right in thinking that you have something against strikes because others can do that?

[slinkydevil]

That's what I said. I'm no fan of unions and their ability to strike.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I am not a great fan of unions myself but strikes are one of the few ways in which workers can have power over the employer, otherwise workers would have no control. But the fact that you are against worker class action is not the same as begrudging the public sector for striking because you are in the private.

[Jimcalagon]

It's not a reduction in wage it's just not an increase.

 

If your wages increase at less than the rate of the cost of living then, in real terms, your salary has reduced as it is worth less than it was.

 

If you are too thick to understand that than I'm not surprised you aren't getting a wage increase.

[oldmanxfella]

Its sad, but you sound bitter

What would you recommend?

 

Great I've found the link I have been looking for

 

http://www.gov.im/lib/news/treasury/econom...gepayupless.xml

 

Maybe you should read it. I quote "Treasury Minister Allan Bell reflected on the findings in the report that show public sector average pay to be significantly ahead of that in the private sector ........ the 2005 report concludes that average pay across the public sector is some 15% above that in the private sector and this differential has widened over the last four years."

 

So your paid 15% better than private sector workers on average, you have better employment conditions, vastly better pensions, and no chance of being made redundant. Maybe you might wish to reflect why a private sector worker facing redundancy, pay freezes and a great deal of uncertainty might sound bitter - particularly as he's paying for your comfortable existence through his taxes and getting little back himself.

 

Wake up and smell the coffee please. I know hundreds of people that would be delighted just to have the security of a pay freeze. I'm not being anti government worker here at all as many do valuable jobs but please realize on what side your bread is buttered.

 

The economics do not work out.

I am pleased however, that you've released some of your frustration onto me and if that makes you feel better, then that's good, as it's not healthy to carry such thoughts and feelings about and certainly can't do you any good in the long run, but I doubt whether any comments said so far will make the slightest difference to what you or I say now or most likely in the future.

 

Thanks for ignoring the glaring obvious in my balanced post. I have no frustration as my post clearly indicates. I am pointing out that your own government did a survey 4 years ago that proved beyond doubt that you are paid 15% on average more than private sector workers. What part of that did you not understand? I am certainly not envious or frustrated because believe me I earn a fair wedge at the end of the day. I was pointing out to you that you should accept the reality of this fact and accept a pay freeze in good grace because your job is likely better paid and a damn sight more secure than many taxpayers who are paying your wages.

 

You clearly cannot grasp this concept?

 

You are not likely to be made redundant, you have a great pension, you get sick pay and other benefits, and your paid 15% above the private sector market rate so stop whingeing about how hard done by you are. You have had a zero percent pay increase when inflation was zero percent last month so its not even a pay cut if you use official figures. Does the reality of that fact make your brain overheat？

[manxy]

Its sad, but you sound bitter

What would you recommend?

 

Great I've found the link I have been looking for

 

http://www.gov.im/lib/news/treasury/econom...gepayupless.xml

 

Maybe you should read it. I quote "Treasury Minister Allan Bell reflected on the findings in the report that show public sector average pay to be significantly ahead of that in the private sector ........ the 2005 report concludes that average pay across the public sector is some 15% above that in the private sector and this differential has widened over the last four years."

 

So your paid 15% better than private sector workers on average, you have better employment conditions, vastly better pensions, and no chance of being made redundant. Maybe you might wish to reflect why a private sector worker facing redundancy, pay freezes and a great deal of uncertainty might sound bitter - particularly as he's paying for your comfortable existence through his taxes and getting little back himself.

 

Wake up and smell the coffee please. I know hundreds of people that would be delighted just to have the security of a pay freeze. I'm not being anti government worker here at all as many do valuable jobs but please realize on what side your bread is buttered.

 

The economics do not work out.

I am pleased however, that you've released some of your frustration onto me and if that makes you feel better, then that's good, as it's not healthy to carry such thoughts and feelings about and certainly can't do you any good in the long run, but I doubt whether any comments said so far will make the slightest difference to what you or I say now or most likely in the future.

 

Thanks for ignoring the glaring obvious in my balanced post. I have no frustration as my post clearly indicates. I am pointing out that your own government did a survey 4 years ago that proved beyond doubt that you are paid 15% on average more than private sector workers. What part of that did you not understand? I am certainly not envious or frustrated because believe me I earn a fair wedge at the end of the day. I was pointing out to you that you should accept the reality of this fact and accept a pay freeze in good grace because your job is likely better paid and a damn sight more secure than many taxpayers who are paying your wages.

 

You clearly cannot grasp this concept?

 

You are not likely to be made redundant, you have a great pension, you get sick pay and other benefits, and your paid 15% above the private sector market rate so stop whingeing about how hard done by you are. You have had a zero percent pay increase when inflation was zero percent last month so its not even a pay cut if you use official figures. Does the reality of that fact make your brain overheat？

And you bozo seem to be jealous! Ignorant prat

Your own Government? You're not Manx then as I'm sure you must mean our Government, the one you voted for?

Why should I accept a pay freeze, what gives you the right to talk about me having a pay freeze, just who are you to whinge your tits off about what affects my family.

Ever thought of joining up or are you just going to harp on about nothing you can't change?

[oldmanxfella]

And you bozo seem to be jealous! Ignorant prat

Your own Government? You're not Manx then as I'm sure you must mean our Government, the one you voted for?

Why should I accept a pay freeze, what gives you the right to talk about me having a pay freeze, just who are you to whinge your tits off about what affects my family.

Ever thought of joining up or are you just going to harp on about nothing you can't change?

 

I'm as Manx as the hills you knobber. Its funny that you resort to insults first when challenged. My posts were nothing but balanced linking to information published by IOMG and quotes from our own Treasury Minister.

 

You seem to completely ignore the reality or your position - official surveys show that on average your overpaid and your moaning about not being overpaid more.

 

I have accepted a pay freeze for the last 2 years to help my business and I'm happy to do that as I understand the economic reality of the situation we are in. All I am suggesting to you is that you accept the reality of things yourself. The economy has gone bad, tax take is down, there is less money in the system to cushion you in your job. Its not rocket science. Most people living in the real world accept that the gravy train is over for a few years whilst the economy contracts.