Mother Sets Fire To Herself And Daughter To Escape Bullies

[La_Dolce_Vita]

(Well I was thinking of becoming an intelligence officer a few years ago, what wasted talent)

I suppose I could have kept it to the fact that we can't really understand her mentality.

[Mr. Sausages]

Well I was thinking of becoming a few years ago intelligence officer

 

I can't how that didn't imagine work out.

[Gladys]

I am not talking about insanity here, but it would be rather difficult to understand the mentality of someone in that position. Though I can assume she has alone has had to shoulder the responsibility for caring for a disabled son and daughter with rather severe learning disabilities. And in respect of the daughter, she was growing stronger and stronger and more difficult to control. She was left alone to bring up her children (which I assume was very difficult) whilst simultaneously being made to suffer for having disabled children. This went on over a long period of time with no respite. Who knows what sort of thinking someone makes when they feel they have to escape from that but have nowhere to go. It must be mental torture itself having to recognise one's inability to protect her children and herself whilst being aware that there was little way out.

 

Maybe there is a little more than meets the eye. But given what is known, I put this down to someone who really was desperate for some way out, who had given up in view of the circumstances. It would be maybe hard to completely understand her mentality at that time in choosing how to end her life. I do have a lot of sympathy for the mother, however. She committed suicide by SETTING FIRE to herself to escape what she must have previously considered an inescapable situation. She must have felt that that was her only option.

I cannot disagree with any of that, but the fact is still that, not only did she set fire to herself, but she did the same to her daughter, while leaving a son with his own difficulties without a family. She may have been desperate, she may have been mentally unbalanced (even temporarily), but can any of that really explain why she would kill herself and her daughter in such a brutal and painful way? Getting hold of paracetamol, for example, may involve quite some legwork, but is an infinitely more humane way of dispensing of your own life and, arguably, that of your child.

 

In no way am I trying to excuse the bullies (seem like total f*ckwits) or, for that matter, the failure of the social machine to protect her and her family, but what she did was far crueller than anything the bullies had meted out which makes me wonder a bit. Say she had survived but her daughter died, she should have stood trial for murder, albeit it with mitigating circumstances. What would have been the reaction if the pressures were of a different nature, but of the type that others have taken their lives, say debt? Fact is, parents are supposed to protect their children, not kill them. The fact that she killed herself does not exculpate her, although I would have had some sympathy with her had she chosen a less barbaric way of exiting. She possibly was more intent on finding a dramatic attention-drawing ploy (Munchaussens by proxy kind of thing) than actually removing herself and her daughter from the inescapable situation. But left her son behind.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I assume you mean sleeping pills or something like that. Paracetamol would not be a nice way to go. It is a slow painful death because it just heavily damages the liver

 

I understand what you are saying, but rather than look to some aspect of this story that is missing, it might be that we have all the facts we need except a good understanding of the paeticular mentality and decisionmaking that led to the decision. I don't know, I am no psychologist, but in her frame of mind there might have been a period of thinking where she came to the conclusion that being burned alive was bearable if the consequence was a somewhat swift end to her life. And she might have thought similarly about her daughter or she might have been of the mentality of not considering for a moment the issue of her daughter's pain.

 

As you say though parents are supposed to protect their children. She may have felt she had failed in that. Her children had suffered bullying and the daughter was pretty much confined to the home and found to be taken advantage of by people below the window standing there while the daugher pulled up her nighty.

 

I suppose it may be more pertinent to ask whether a mother who has looked after her children (who required more effort to look after than other children) for years and years would want her children to endure pain and suffering. I think not. I therefore do not think that any 'blame' should be placed on the mother in that situation.

 

I am hypothesising as well. But it may be a possibly that the mother considered that the daughter could not be without her. That they were an inseparable 'unit' and should go to their deaths together. Or there might be an assumption that because with all the torture and recognition that the daughter was growing stronger that she could no longer control her daughter and protect both of them. Maybe the mother thought that the only viable option without suicide is to put her daughter in care, which considering that the mother was maybe so close to her daughter and son thought that they could not separated.

 

Maybe the mother thought it would be a very swift death. Or had given the daughter something to take (such as a sleeping pill) prior to going in the car. We don't know the minutiae of what happened.

 

I am not trying to desperately make excuses, but I feel that there could be many reasons for taking this seemingly barbaric act that involved murdering her daughter. Ultimately, however, I think it has to be recognised that coming to a decision to kill yourself by setting yourself on fire is not an easy decision to make. It would take far more conviction, I believe, than a more peaceful method. That to me says something about her desperation or consequences to her mind of her situation.

 

Though lastly, do you possibly think that the mother would have been trying to give some declaration to society of her predicament by doing it in this way?

[Gladys]

I think your last point is a very likely scenario (Munchaussens), but I would not give it the charitable skew that you have.

 

There are so many blaring facets of this case that really should lead you to believe it was not just a case of escaping an otherwise inescapable situation. For example, was the mother actually fit to bring up her children or should they have been taken into care? Did the victimisation result from how the mother dealt with the neighbours? Was the mother capable of dealing with anyone?

 

The more I think of it, the more I think the only conclusion is not that the neighbours were instrumental, but that the various agencies did not pick up that this woman was unable to cope with her particular challenges. Social services do not need yet another spectacular failure so the spotlight is on the behaviour of the neighbours.

 

However, be that as it may, I still do not feel sympathy for the mother; it was a vicious decision that I cannot even imagine in the execution; there must have been so many opportunities to stop that were ignored - the only real victims were the daughter and the son left behind.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

that car. I don't see the connection.

 

For example, was the mother actually fit to bring up her children or should they have been taken into care?

In the sense of physically capable and able to provide the time as well? Possibly not, and possibly that may have made things more difficult.

 

Did the victimisation result from how the mother dealt with the neighbours? Was the mother capable of dealing with anyone?

We don't know enough about the social dynamic in the street or community to know what course of action could have been taken or should have been taken other than what she did. She obviously tried to enlist the help of the police and make them aware of the situation. She was capable of acquiring help from those who she thought could offer it. And else is speculation. She might not have known how to access support services or may have chosen not go for some reason.

 

And such challenges that she faces may have been completely manageable for this woman who had achieved so much in bringing up two children, one of who was a young adult.

Though the daughter was apparently more of a handful. It might be that the neighbours behaviour was solely to blame. I am inclined to think this when there was comment on the mother hiding in the house in the dark until these kids went away.

 

I still do not feel sympathy for the mother; it was a vicious decision that I cannot even imagine in the execution; there must have been so many opportunities to stop that were ignored

And I think that is the problem, we cannot really imagine what the mindset is. Assessing things from a rational basis would seem to make it seem wrong that the mother chose a more painful way to die and brought her daughter with, though even so I can understand why she would have wanted to die with her daughter or think it was better for her daughter. But they may be thought processes here that were rational, that could possibly have been the result of some chronic depression and recognition of her predicament. Something might have happened which triggered her to make a decision there and then. I don't know.

 

I do think you are trying to work this out by assuming that decisions were rational, made sense, and in consideration of the pain involved from burning an assumption that it was fully recognised and purposeful. I don't feel comfortable coming to those conclusions when the mother has already has taken what is a massive decision to end her life.

And I feel very sorry that such a person reaches a stage where they even consider ending their life, nevermind carrying it out. I think mitigating such sympathy because of how she ended her daughter's life is only 'fair' if we had a good appreciation of what the mother's mindset was. But this is impossible.

 

Why do you think setting fire to herself rather than taking pills was a choice made? Just to hypothesise.

 

Anyway, off to bed, but good chatting about it.

[Gladys]

Pills versus fire, it was all within her choice. I have to work this out with my own rationale, there is no other analogue and I cannot find any reaonable reason (hmm, yes) why you would want to end your child's life by the most excrutiating means, forget about your own demise.

 

My postulation is that this was a difficult family who didn't 'take' to the social services sausage machine. Social services then had no responsibility. The situation spirals, Mum seems unable to, say, invite a neighbour in for tea to diffuse matters but just becomes very defensive and so aggresive which feeds the neighbours. The upshot is that neighbours start urinating in the garden, the police have already had the heads up and actually have more crimes to solve than a pissy neighbour and Mum, who has already demonstrated her inability to deal with people decides the best way out is to set fire to herself and her daughter - that will teach them.

[Vulgarian]

Pills versus fire, it was all within her choice.

 

I think there is no question of her having made a rational choice about killing herself and her daughter, or the method she used. She must have been suffering from severe mental illness to have considered (not really the right word) such an awful method of suicide and inflicting it on her daughter.

[Albert Tatlock]

Pills versus fire, it was all within her choice.

 

I think there is no question of her having made a rational choice about killing herself and her daughter, or the method she used. She must have been suffering from severe mental illness to have considered (not really the right word) such an awful method of suicide and inflicting it on her daughter.

Is there definite, undisputed, proof that she actually did this? Or was there somone else involved maybe? I've seen headlines but little detail.

[John]

Just a very sad set of details from what I have read. The whole issue is sad. So much more should / could be done. Its just that it will always be too late for some poor soul.

[bluemonday]

Judging by a number of articles in the Times and other papers, the poor woman was the victim of what can effectively be termed a long and sustained campaign of psychological abuse and intimidation.

 

The fact that the feral scum that targetted her continually over a long period of time, did so without any effective intervention from the police and other agencies is appalling. A few sackings of the public servants who failed to do their job might encourage the others to do theirs.

 

Whilst no one can condone her final action, it should be viewed as an abberation brought on by the systemic 'torture' inflicted on her.

 

I note that the principal scum involved have a history of anti social behaviour and that previous action that had been undertaken to terminate this was ineffectual.

 

The correct thing to do now should be to evict the household(s) responsible for failing to control their feral brats and permanently deny them access to public housing and benefits.

 

If they're content to act like animals, they can live in the fields like animals.

[Sebrof]

Pills versus fire, it was all within her choice. I have to work this out with my own rationale, there is no other analogue and I cannot find any reaonable reason (hmm, yes) why you would want to end your child's life by the most excrutiating means, forget about your own demise.

 

My postulation is that this was a difficult family who didn't 'take' to the social services sausage machine. Social services then had no responsibility. The situation spirals, Mum seems unable to, say, invite a neighbour in for tea to diffuse matters but just becomes very defensive and so aggresive which feeds the neighbours. The upshot is that neighbours start urinating in the garden, the police have already had the heads up and actually have more crimes to solve than a pissy neighbour and Mum, who has already demonstrated her inability to deal with people decides the best way out is to set fire to herself and her daughter - that will teach them.

 

 

This is a woman driven beyond despair and you expect her to behave rationally. Your response is itself irrational, and you're under no pressure at all.

 

S

[Gladys]

No, if you look at all my posts on the topic you will see that I believe there is more to this than has been reported. In no way am I trying to excuse the actions of the neighbours, nor the inactions of the police and social services. But had the mother survived, would it be right to think that she may be up for a murder charge?

[Gilly G. Ossenfeffer]

Pills versus fire, it was all within her choice. I have to work this out with my own rationale, there is no other analogue and I cannot find any reaonable reason (hmm, yes) why you would want to end your child's life by the most excrutiating means, forget about your own demise.

This is a woman driven beyond despair and you expect her to behave rationally. Your response is itself irrational, and you're under no pressure at all.

S

I agree. There is no way of knowing the mental state of the woman in question. You can't judge mentally ill people on your own rationale. Your intolerance seems to be based on an ignorance of mental illness and how it can affect people.

[Sebrof]

No, if you look at all my posts on the topic you will see that I believe there is more to this than has been reported. In no way am I trying to excuse the actions of the neighbours, nor the inactions of the police and social services. But had the mother survived, would it be right to think that she may be up for a murder charge?

 

I'm not arguing with ALL your posts on the topic. But I do argue with this:

 

"However, be that as it may, I still do not feel sympathy for the mother; it was a vicious decision that I cannot even imagine in the execution;"

 

What you mean is that you can't put yourself in the position of a woman driven to such a pitch that she takes her own, and her daughter's life.

 

The problem here is your lack of imagination.

 

S