La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 I don't think for one minute that gagging people in this manner works to eliminate hatred and prejudice. I am interested to know how you think it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terse Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 For me the issue in this case is one of the maintenance and even escalation of ill founded hatred by the promulgation of lies. That has been meat & drink for almost every political entity throughout recorded history. It has been the foundation for wars and the excuse for empire-building. As Mark Twain observed: "A lie can travel halfway across the world while truth is still getting its boots on!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I don't think for one minute that gagging people in this manner works to eliminate hatred and prejudice. I am interested to know how you think it does. Preventing people from spreading lies may well not eliminate hatred and prejudice, but what it can do is stop it being reinforced. Picture this. The date – 1985. The place – Sawbridgeworth. The players – my son and the kids from a couple of our neighbours, and their mates from Harlow, the nearby hyper-estate. Wife looking out of the window watching every move (Jewish mother) sees a coupe of the kids (from Harlow) moving my kids hair around as if looking for things. Wife runs out (as they do) thinking kid has nits or somesuch and asks what they’re looking for. “We’re trying to see where his ’orns ‘ave been cut off misses” is the reply. THAT is the sort of crap that people still believe about us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 You're wasting your time Rog. Some people are so stupid they're beyond reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 You're wasting your time Rog.Some people are so stupid they're beyond reason. And how am I displaying stupidity here then Bluemonday? And I don't think you are one to offer an assessment of my intelligence. I am quite aware of how racist, homophobic, sexist, 'ableist', etc. society is. I am quite aware of the importance of tackling this. But gagging people would not seem to tackle these problems and I have not been provided with any good justification for the State's authority to determine my freedom of speech. However, with the Holocaust law, there seems more to be a need for the State to pander to sensibilities over an issue that seems (seemed) to have Germany's and Austria's population feeling a collective guilt. It is just far too taboo and unacceptable to challenge the truth on the Holocaust without outrage and ridicule - and this is good. Unfortunately this taboo has resulted in the State creating this law. If laws like this are needed then we really are a stupid society. No chance to even debate, no discussion, no ability to deride the people making such arguments where there is little evidence - no, just get that parental entity to silence them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Res ipsa loquitur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarface Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 You're wasting your time Rog.Some people are so stupid they're beyond reason. And how am I displaying stupidity here then Bluemonday? And I don't think you are one to offer an assessment of my intelligence. I am quite aware of how racist, homophobic, sexist, 'ableist', etc. society is. I am quite aware of the importance of tackling this. But gagging people would not seem to tackle these problems and I have not been provided with any good justification for the State's authority to determine my freedom of speech. However, with the Holocaust law, there seems more to be a need for the State to pander to sensibilities over an issue that seems (seemed) to have Germany's and Austria's population feeling a collective guilt. It is just far too taboo and unacceptable to challenge the truth on the Holocaust without outrage and ridicule - and this is good. Unfortunately this taboo has resulted in the State creating this law. If laws like this are needed then we really are a stupid society. No chance to even debate, no discussion, no ability to deride the people making such arguments where there is little evidence - no, just get that parental entity to silence them. As far as I am concerned, its a German thing. It was their people's way of dealing with the atrocities committed in their name by their former leaders. The physical and historic evidence is totally undeniable. What to me gives the greatest concern, is the way in which a priest, whose judgement should be exemplary, should firstly hold such views and secondly show be so totally devoid of any judgement, as to make the comments he did where they would bring him into conflict with the law of the land where he made them. What he did, was directly comparable to someone who had bought a ticket for a football game between Man U and Liverpool, standing amongst the Liverpool supporters, cheering on Man U. He'd get thumped. He had previously been excommunicated from the Catholic church for his views and only recently been welcomed back into it. I can't see him lasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 It isn't a German thing. The law wasn't created out of some popular decision. And why should a Priest have exemplary judgement. He believes in God, that's enough to detract from any idea of exemplary judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magneto Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Picture this. The date – 1985. The place – Sawbridgeworth. The players – my son and the kids from a couple of our neighbours, and their mates from Harlow, the nearby hyper-estate. Wife looking out of the window watching every move (Jewish mother) sees a coupe of the kids (from Harlow) moving my kids hair around as if looking for things. Wife runs out (as they do) thinking kid has nits or somesuch and asks what they’re looking for. “We’re trying to see where his ’orns ‘ave been cut off misses” is the reply. THAT is the sort of crap that people still believe about us. What utter twaddle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Picture this. The date – 1985. The place – Sawbridgeworth. The players – my son and the kids from a couple of our neighbours, and their mates from Harlow, the nearby hyper-estate. Wife looking out of the window watching every move (Jewish mother) sees a coupe of the kids (from Harlow) moving my kids hair around as if looking for things. Wife runs out (as they do) thinking kid has nits or somesuch and asks what they’re looking for. “We’re trying to see where his ’orns ‘ave been cut off misses” is the reply. THAT is the sort of crap that people still believe about us. What utter twaddle! It happens to be absolutely true and exactly what took place. Maybe that you think that such is not the case shows just how little you know about the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magneto Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It happens to be absolutely true and exactly what took place. Maybe that you think that such is not the case shows just how little you know about the subject. What talking cobblers?? No Sir you are undisputed master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 What did shock me (with not having been exposed to it) is just how bad racism is against Jewish people in Salford and Manchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It happens to be absolutely true and exactly what took place. Maybe that you think that such is not the case shows just how little you know about the subject. What talking cobblers?? No Sir you are undisputed master No, that what I described took place is exactly what took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarface Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It isn't a German thing. The law wasn't created out of some popular decision. And why should a Priest have exemplary judgement. He believes in God, that's enough to detract from any idea of exemplary judgement. Its in Germany and he's a Brit, we expect other people to obey our laws in our country and its only right that our nationals should do the same thing in someone else's. To be quite honest, the man is a bloody fool. Being excommunicated is about as serious as it gets for his religion. A few months after this being lifted and he's at it again. He clearly has no respect for his spiritual leaders. A cleric is supposed to be a leader and someone to be looked up to. The fact that someone professes to believe in God, per se, doesn't mean a lot, since historically some very nasty things have been done by people who claimed to be doing them in his name and continue to be done daily. A man's words and deeds are a better yardstick as to his worth, whether Christian,Jewish, Muslim, black, white or whatever. How on earth can anyone deny the holocaust? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8364447.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesypeas Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 It isn't a German thing. The law wasn't created out of some popular decision. And why should a Priest have exemplary judgement. He believes in God, that's enough to detract from any idea of exemplary judgement. Its in Germany and he's a Brit, we expect other people to obey our laws in our country and its only right that our nationals should do the same thing in someone else's. To be quite honest, the man is a bloody fool. Being excommunicated is about as serious as it gets for his religion. A few months after this being lifted and he's at it again. He clearly has no respect for his spiritual leaders. A cleric is supposed to be a leader and someone to be looked up to. The fact that someone professes to believe in God, per se, doesn't mean a lot, since historically some very nasty things have been done by people who claimed to be doing them in his name and continue to be done daily. A man's words and deeds are a better yardstick as to his worth, whether Christian,Jewish, Muslim, black, white or whatever. How on earth can anyone deny the holocaust? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8364447.stm The wife and I are doing a tour around Dachau next week. Really looking forward to it, but know it will be very hard hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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