Iraq War Inquiry

[Republican]

The war was a mistake, but in the end in one way it was inevitable. The British economy would be severley affected in the future, Tony Blair did it out of desperation.

 

The world uses a lot of energy, and that increases everwhere, every year, the population gets bigger. There just isn't enough crude oil for everyone. And Britain's North sea has been in decline for a decade, the natural gas and crude oil.

 

Iraq is one of the world's last remaining nearly un-tapped oil wells of the planet.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

So why the fuck didn't people rise up and do something? Everybody is like "Yeah, yeah, dreadful, they never had them WoMD, nor chemical weapons", makes me really angry. That doctor, you know the one who had a 'heart attack' whilst hanging himself from a tree, more intelligent than the entire British parliament put together, he's dead but thats ok...meh.

Rise up in the UK or rise up in Iraq? If you mean the UK then I'd suppose that the problem is the people in the UK have very, very little power to influence foreign policy through the British political system. It is an aspect of decisionmaking that the people are denied even more participation in than domestic matters. And if you are constantly barraged with messages telling you that representative democracy is right and proper and the only way to do things then people are left with little scope to effect change.

 

Both sides as bad as each other - well the fact is George W is now writing his memoirs and the White House is occupied by someone else. There wasn't such a mechanism to get rid of Sadam - or to reign in the behaviour of any of the other animals endemic to that region.

The only problem with America is that there is no opportunity for regime change.

[alibaba]

Maybe we're actually the baddies.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Maybe? The UK is most certainly not the good guy. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq for that.

[thebees]

Maybe we're actually the baddies.

 

That is a thought I pondered recently too. The Great British Society, it's all a bit Jeremy Kyle innit? The regimes may be much harder in foreign parts but you dont find kids stabbing each other in the playground while getting their dangerous dogs to eat the police in Iraq, do you? I know that might sound ridiculous but I hope you get the point (which would take far longer than I have to explain).

[jimbms]

Maybe we're actually the baddies.

 

That is a thought I pondered recently too. The Great British Society, it's all a bit Jeremy Kyle innit? The regimes may be much harder in foreign parts but you dont find kids stabbing each other in the playground while getting their dangerous dogs to eat the police in Iraq, do you? I know that might sound ridiculous but I hope you get the point (which would take far longer than I have to explain).

Yep fair point, you don't get many re offenders in Iraq or Afghanistan for crimes such as rape, theft and violence against the person.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Maybe we're actually the baddies.

 

That is a thought I pondered recently too. The Great British Society, it's all a bit Jeremy Kyle innit? The regimes may be much harder in foreign parts but you dont find kids stabbing each other in the playground while getting their dangerous dogs to eat the police in Iraq, do you? I know that might sound ridiculous but I hope you get the point (which would take far longer than I have to explain).

I think the mistaking comparing the REGIMES (the State/government apparatus and the leaders of countries) with the rest of the population in Britain and Iraq. In this instance, when we are talking about the baddies or goodies we mean those who have power and those who conduct foreign policy.

[thebees]

Yeah but thats not what I was thinking about (although it did enter in to discussion with Mrbees, I claim it is the same because the governments are representatives of the people). Who knows who is right or wrong?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I am not too sure what you are really getting at then. Governments are not the same as the people - the people just support them. They represent you in the sense of being from the same country and make decisions on your behalf, but their decisions are not made with your interests in consideration. It is a completely different thing to make comparisons at the social problems that exist at the very 'bottom' of British and Iraqi society. The issue that has been looked at so far is whether the American and British governments are much worse than the Saddam government.

 

And yes, who can know who is right and who is wrong. That's easy. Use the same rules that the American and British governments profess to uphold and then look at the hypocrisy of their actions. International law might be a good place to start. Do you think it right that countries should be invaded because their governments does not play by American rules and slip away from American economic control?

 

And what about your knowledge of how the world appears to work in terms of control of trade, of power, and resources? Do you think it is right that thousands of civilians should die for the sake of gaining control of strategic and oil-rich areas so that Western corporations and businesses can increase their profits and power?

 

It is a bit silly making comparisons between Saddam and the US government. Saddam was a tyrant and murderer. The US government is not a tyranny, although it has been involved in all sorts of dirty work - terrorism, torture, murders, etc. They're all bad. Just awful in different ways and to different degrees given their actions.

 

It might be more interesting, however, to discuss the reasoning behind why people think that such action in Iraq was right. That would appear to me to seem tough challenge unless you take a completely hypocritical stance on the moral values in western nations (i.e. US and Europe).

[thebees]

Do you think it is right that thousands of civilians should die for the sake of gaining control of strategic and oil-rich areas so that Western corporations and businesses can increase their profits and power?

 

 

Yeah ofc I do........FFS LDV. Kill them all - eat their children if necessary, just as long as my mates businesses are well profitable and I can carry my lard ass about in a massive SUV.

[Republican]

I am not too sure what you are really getting at then. Governments are not the same as the people - the people just support them. They represent you in the sense of being from the same country and make decisions on your behalf, but their decisions are not made with your interests in consideration. It is a completely different thing to make comparisons at the social problems that exist at the very 'bottom' of British and Iraqi society. The issue that has been looked at so far is whether the American and British governments are much worse than the Saddam government.

 

And yes, who can know who is right and who is wrong. That's easy. Use the same rules that the American and British governments profess to uphold and then look at the hypocrisy of their actions. International law might be a good place to start. Do you think it right that countries should be invaded because their governments does not play by American rules and slip away from American economic control?

 

And what about your knowledge of how the world appears to work in terms of control of trade, of power, and resources? Do you think it is right that thousands of civilians should die for the sake of gaining control of strategic and oil-rich areas so that Western corporations and businesses can increase their profits and power?

 

It is a bit silly making comparisons between Saddam and the US government. Saddam was a tyrant and murderer. The US government is not a tyranny, although it has been involved in all sorts of dirty work - terrorism, torture, murders, etc. They're all bad. Just awful in different ways and to different degrees given their actions.

 

It might be more interesting, however, to discuss the reasoning behind why people think that such action in Iraq was right. That would appear to me to seem tough challenge unless you take a completely hypocritical stance on the moral values in western nations (i.e. US and Europe).

 

Profits and power, what about us, who need the oil?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well what about us? Is it right that international law is broken and that thousands are slaughtered so that American and British corporations can control this resource as opposed to purchasing it from the Iraqi government or Iraqi corporations? The fact that the West needs oil doesn't make it right for the Western nations to use force to obtain Western-based corporate control over its supply. Besides Saddam never stopped supplying oil to the West

 

In any case, the issue wasn't all about oil. A good deal wrested on the grudge that the Republican elite had against a Middle Eastern leader who had slipped from their control and was wilfully ignoring their demands. And some of the reasoning behind an invasion did rest of the mistaken idea that the Iraqi regime had strong links to Al Qaeda.

[jimbms]

Well what about us? Is it right that international law is broken and that thousands are slaughtered so that American and British corporations can control this resource as opposed to purchasing it from the Iraqi government or Iraqi corporations? The fact that the West needs oil doesn't make it right for the Western nations to use force to obtain Western-based corporate control over its supply. Besides Saddam never stopped supplying oil to the West

 

In any case, the issue wasn't all about oil. A good deal wrested on the grudge that the Republican elite had against a Middle Eastern leader who had slipped from their control and was wilfully ignoring their demands. And some of the reasoning behind an invasion did rest of the mistaken idea that the Iraqi regime had strong links to Al Qaeda.

I take it then that the Thousands of Kurds mudered by Sadams genocide and members of opposing tribes slaughtered to keep him in power didn't realy matter then and that in your view he should have been allowed to continue because it would break international law to prevent this, or would you have been happy if naughty little Sadam recieved a hefty fine and some community service for the murder of all these, afterall it would be a crime to inerfere wouldn't it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

What does it matter what I think about the Kurds and Saddam domestic policies? What has it got to do with War?

The war had nothing to do with any concern for these people and the US and UK governments had no concern for the Iraqi people. It is purely incidental that the Kurdish people are better for having Saddam gone.

 

And the UK and USA do not invade countries remove oppressive regimes because of concern for the people. The elites in the West don't care. They'd sooner support (and do support) nasty regimes if I good for maintaining western corporate power and control over people.

[jimbms]

LDV I really hope one day soon conscription comes back an and you end up on the first draft, I would put money on a good number of ex forces posters here queuing up to re-enlist just for the entertainment value of watch you.