Good News From South Africa

[Chinahand]

What I find so disturbing about this thread is that it shows a massive lack of sympathy for the plight of humanity.

 

We are priviledged people who live in safe, pampered societies, with strong institutions and support mechanisms.

 

The average African isn't as lucky. I've lived in South Africa for three years, and travelled through most of Southern Africa.

 

I've found the vast mass of Africans helpful and friendly people whether in a Shabeen, a squatter camp, or in a tribal area after a car accident. In fact I've noticed over my time that the poorer people are the more generous they tend to be.

 

Now - I've not got rosy spectacles though. I have very little doubt that many African societies are dominated by cultural memes and problems which are inimical to material success - kleptocracy, corruption, lack of property rights, a reactionary system of kowtowing to tribal authority, lack of infrastructure, or supply networks (just a question MDO – where do you reckon are the nearest spare parts for those tractors you saw – or the nearest regular supply of diesel, where you don’t have to pay a bribe and 10 times the market rate to buy it?) etc etc.

 

The trade vrs aid argument is complex - and I agree that aid can destroy local entreupreneurship and the development of market networks, but there isn’t anything particularly odd about africa’s birthrate or family size - I’m pretty certain a Victorian slum in the grim North had just as large families and just as many kids - birth rates will always lag death rates and family sizes will not reduce until there is a reasonable probability the family will be able to replace itself and provide care for the elderly parents.

 

Africa as a whole has an dependency ratio of a bit less than 20%. Out of every £100 of economic activity generated in Africa every year £80 is generated through trade and enterprise and 20% is given by wealthier countries. I don’t find this so terrible especially when you consider the damage AIDS etc have wrought.

 

Its easy when you are educated, and have stability and resources to sneer at those less fortunate than you. Of course if you were in such a situation you’d not need aid and would be able to pull your self up on your own, creating legal systems and overpowering local strongmen out to steal from you. [/scarcasm]

 

I think people have a rosy eyed view of Colonialism – where famine was also a regular occurrence, and the colonial authorities hardly invested in the natives. Africa has vastly more difficult conditions to overcome compared to Europe (read Guns, Germs and Steel to understand the geographical difficulties it faces).

 

Capitalism’s exponential growth leaves those outside its sphere rapidly falling behind, and the west built enclaves in Africa to use its resources totally isolated from the local population who for centuries were treated as subhuman and hunted into slavery.

 

That legacy is real – the west profited for many years out of Africa’s wealth and returned very little in return. Getting aid right is vital to stop it feeding dependency and corruption, but those problems aren’t in my mind a reason to end aid – the consequence of which would be death on a vast scale – and hence more births as worn out mothers desperately try to gain the support of a family.

 

Africa's situation is slowly improving - aid has a small role to play in that - it currently contributes about 20% - may it become ever lower - but by letting African enterprise grow.

[Rog]

Africans are not our problem nor are their problems our problems.

 

End of.

[Chinahand]

Oh really Rog - and African's aren't trying to get into Europe due to Africa's poverty and Europe's wealth - and you don't use African raw materials in your phones and consumer items - and you won't get infected by African diseases which spread around the world.

 

Encouraging wealth creation, sustainable use of its mineral resources with the proceeds reinvested into Africa's economy and not stolen, and better health programs are all useless aren't they and we should just build a big wall around Africa and ignore it - oh but we can't because we'll have to dig under that wall to extract the coltan etc.

[Rog]

Oh really Rog - and African's aren't trying to get into Europe due to Africa's poverty and Europe's wealth –

 

We should do our level best to keep them out. Really. After all, what do you call someone who breaks into your home and helps themselves to what’s yours?

 

Either someone who’s better than you, or a burglar. If they’re better than you then put up and shut up. If they’re a burglar then kick them the hell out. You don’t give handouts to burglars.

 

and you don't use African raw materials in your phones and consumer items - and you won't get infected by African diseases which spread around the world.

 

If we can get our raw materials out then we should. If they can stop us then they should. They do not. End of story. It’s a dog eat dog world.

 

As for African diseases, the diseases are a problem to us, as long as we can protect ourselves that’s what matters. If the Africans want the medicines and can pay for them, fine, let them buy them and not expect us to give the medicines to them.

 

Encouraging wealth creation, sustainable use of its mineral resources with the proceeds reinvested into Africa's economy and not stolen, and better health programs are all useless aren't they and we should just build a big wall around Africa and ignore it - oh but we can't because we'll have to dig under that wall to extract the coltan etc.

 

It’s a dog eat dog world. We should give NOTHING that is either bought or can be taken from us.

 

Sorry, I have a very unsympathetic view on life’s “unfortunates”. The West has been doling out money for bloody years into Africa and what has happened?

 

Not that it has all been siphoned off into Swiss bank accounts, that’s an alibi though there is no doubt that a good chunk of it has, instead it’s been used to buy guns, booze, cigarettes, and to support the recipients sitting on their backsides.

 

We, the Europeans, established colonies in Africa, we built nations, we provided infrastructures, developed administrations, poured vast amounts of money, effort, and lives into the place, we educated the negroes in the ways of the modern world, and when we left we left with established trade deals in place.

 

And what happened.

 

They resorted to type.

 

Africa? It is what it is and it suits the negroes as the negroes suit Africa.

 

Now we should be dealing with Africa and the indigenous population at arms length. They’ve re-made their bed in the ay that they like it --- fine.

 

Let them lie on it.

[Khunbaan]

Hard hitting rog but you have got it spot on. At the moment all aid to africa should be stopped completely, yes some will die but that happens everywhere in nature, animals and humans its the only way to control the population if you cant eat you cant live therefore dont produce anymore children.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

We should do our level best to keep them out. Really. After all, what do you call someone who breaks into your home and helps themselves to what’s yours?

Except that what is ours comes from dealing with Africa in such a way to make sure the raw materials are dirt cheaps and the Africans can little for it. And the appratus of the most powerful western states operates to enforce free trade and austerity programmes which only hinders local development and leaves the people in poverty. Our prosperous lives are partly built upon the backs of those poor Africans who want to share their privileged. It is understandable why they would want to come here and inexcusable to deny their entry.

 

Either someone who’s better than you, or a burglar. If they’re better than you then put up and shut up. If they’re a burglar then kick them the hell out. You don’t give handouts to burglars.

Handouts? What handsouts?

 

If we can get our raw materials out then we should. If they can stop us then they should. They do not. End of story. It’s a dog eat dog world.

It is a dog eat dog world. They can't afford to stop trading in the raw materials and if they ever could they would forced to.

 

As for African diseases, the diseases are a problem to us, as long as we can protect ourselves that’s what matters. If the Africans want the medicines and can pay for them, fine, let them buy them and not expect us to give the medicines to them.

At what prices? The highly inflated prices that the pharmaceutical companies set?

 

Not that it has all been siphoned off into Swiss bank accounts, that’s an alibi though there is no doubt that a good chunk of it has, instead it’s been used to buy guns, booze, cigarettes, and to support the recipients sitting on their backsides.

But not siphoned into accounts by the people but by their masters.

 

We, the Europeans, established colonies in Africa, we built nations, we provided infrastructures, developed administrations, poured vast amounts of money, effort, and lives into the place, we educated the negroes in the ways of the modern world, and when we left we left with established trade deals in place.

The Europeans established colonies - so what? Established nations? Why is that a good thing? And a vast amount of money has never been ploughed into Africa. Far more was taken out to meet the needs of the European economies. Some Africans (and not just Black people) were given an education. But that depends on what colony they lived in and was not education for all!

 

As for trade deals - you're taking the piss if you think they got a good deal out of those.

[Rog]

Look, LDV, there are two kinds of people in the world. The givers and the takers.

 

YOU be what you want to be, I’ll be what I want to be, but just remember, if it wasn’t for people like me people like you wouldn’t be able to adopt the position that you do.

 

In essence, yes, life’s a bitch. Next?

[manxy]

I used to give quite frequently to charities acting in the interests of Africa, as I thought I was helping the needy, but not any more, as I find that my funds were being misappropriated to those who were wealthy. Link ref foreign aid

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Look, LDV, there are two kinds of people in the world. The givers and the takers.

 

YOU be what you want to be, I’ll be what I want to be, but just remember, if it wasn’t for people like me people like you wouldn’t be able to adopt the position that you do.

 

In essence, yes, life’s a bitch. Next?

But what I am saying is that people in the West are just as much the takers, in the manner in which Africa is unfairly traded with. The UK wouldn't be anywhere near as rich as it is if it wasn't for protectionism.

 

And then of all the people on earth to talk about Takers. The Isle of Man exists by making conditions better for those who feed off other people. Anyone who is a fan of tax regimes and glad they operate on the Island cannot credibly moan about Africa sucking in money.

[DjDan]

Thankyou Chinahand for a fair and open minded review of Africa's problems.

[Rog]

Look, LDV, there are two kinds of people in the world. The givers and the takers.

 

YOU be what you want to be, I’ll be what I want to be, but just remember, if it wasn’t for people like me people like you wouldn’t be able to adopt the position that you do.

 

In essence, yes, life’s a bitch. Next?

But what I am saying is that people in the West are just as much the takers, in the manner in which Africa is unfairly traded with. The UK wouldn't be anywhere near as rich as it is if it wasn't for protectionism.

 

And then of all the people on earth to talk about Takers. The Isle of Man exists by making conditions better for those who feed off other people. Anyone who is a fan of tax regimes and glad they operate on the Island cannot credibly moan about Africa sucking in money.

 

In this life you get what you can get away with. or what some idiot gives you for nothing.

 

Like I wrote. Life's a bitch. Next?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The problem I see with your thoughts on this matter, in bringing in the 'shit happens' concept and stretching the term 'survival of the fittest' to any circumstances can only make someone conclude that you think all circumstances and situations are justified simply by their happening/existence.

[gazza]

The problem I see with your thoughts on this matter, in bringing in the 'shit happens' concept and stretching the term 'survival of the fittest' to any circumstances can only make someone conclude that you think all circumstances and situations are justified simply by their happening/existence.

 

id say its just life

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well that illuminates things, Gazza. It is life that the Iraq War happened; it is life that Jews (and others) were gassed in the 1940s; it's life that people go on strike; it is life that crime happens... Just life.

[Rog]

The problem I see with your thoughts on this matter, in bringing in the 'shit happens' concept and stretching the term 'survival of the fittest' to any circumstances can only make someone conclude that you think all circumstances and situations are justified simply by their happening/existence.

 

 

Life isn’t nice, and it’s a cliché but nonetheless true, nice guys don’t win.

 

If a disease breaks out and spreads because of people living immoral lifestyles yet those of us who do not for the most part are not exposed to the disease except by accident then let those who live in or associated with immorality die off.

 

In nature it’s called cleansing of the hives. There will be a few unfortunate who get infected indirectly, that’s unfortunate, but for the majority it’s their or their partner’s immorality that kills.

 

It would be nice to be able to find a cure for people who become infected as a consequence of immorality but on the other hand it also would result in the message that immorality is WRONG that AIDS sends being diluted or even forgotten.

 

It would be nice to solve world hunger but it would result in those living in a way that no longer is appropriate for their environment who should be dying off not doing so and continuing to breed useless eaters.

 

I know this will probably offend those brought up in the “We’re all the same under the skin” rubbish but because it IS rubbish such people do not make logical decisions or choices. Africa is a resource. We are a resource.

 

We should take whatever we can, and Africans should take whatever they can.

It’s up to each of us to look after what’s OURS and we’re far better suited to looking after what is ours.

 

That’s life, it’s how it should be, and the do-gooders shouldn’t be allowed to do anything about it.