And The Next War Is..........

[La_Dolce_Vita]

We're not a rebel nation lead by a group of religious fanatics hell bent on converting the world to Islam or putting the infidel to death.

You mean that Iran is not able to be controlled by America or conforms to the rule establish by the most powerful? Yes, Iran is a state that has been under the thumb of Britain and the United States for a very long time, now it is bullied by those states for rebelling against their rules.

 

And the Iranian elite, though Muslim, is not hell bent on putting the infidel to death. The elites in the country are interested in power, they have different priorities altogether.

 

Yes because the West started it all with our bombing and suicide attacks.

And Iran did? What are you talking about.

 

Because the developed nuclear powers have all agreed the nuclear proliferation is a bad idea. I've got some, you've got some. We agree that using them on each other is a bad idea. Unfortunately, the Iranians don't care if the go out with a bang as long as the infidel goes with them.

They decided to get everyone to pledge that they would not develop nuclear weapons AND, crucially, they also pledged that they would eliminate their stocks. The latter pledge has not been fulfilled and has not been abided by, except in the interests of limited tension between the Soviet Union and USA. They have reduced stocks, but this is because complex nuclear theories of deterrence are no longer required against potential threats that cannot effect a complex forms of deterrence. Instead, they have upgraded stocks.

 

The United States and Uk simply don't want to have a strong rather anti-western nation gaining greater power in the region which would serve mitigate the degree of control they have over this region. Moreover, such a State WOULD prove to be a threat to the local 'superpower' which is Israel, which would not want to see a strong Muslim state that backs Palestine having a powerful voice and more over its decisions.

 

Think you have been reading the papers and watching the news too much which seeks to follow the government line of demonising Iran. And this is what annoys me because all this fuss over the nuclear weapons comes out of this very particular view that sees Iran as not having a legitimate claim to building nuclear weapons and which sees it as a dangerous problem-state. Conversely, nobody looks at the USA and its hypocrisy, considers its right to have nuclear weapons, and its role in the Middle East.

 

Um, I think your thinking to small.

 

Iran nukes Isreal. Isreal fights back, with assistance from the US. Korea and some Middle Eastern states get involved. Soon we're fighting WWIII and fighting over who gets the better cave to live in.

 

Edit to add: The reason the Iranians wouldn't trade nukes in the conventional sense is because they would have the nukes smuggeled in and set off by insurgent forces. That way Isreal's capacity to retaliate is significantly reduced if not completely comprimised.

My thinking is too small? I assume from your example you just mean geographically. However, I think your thinking is small in terms of the political and military ramifications of nuclear weapons usage.

 

You appear to be completely missing the purpose of having nuclear weapons and why they would ever be used. Iran wouldn't just explode a bomb because it doesn't like Israel and it wouldn't use a bomb if there was retaliation against it.

[MilitantDogOwner]

I'm wondering how long you'd last in the supposedly "hard done by" Iranian nation spouting your BS LDV.

 

My money is a stoning to death before the first day is out. Hows that for oppresion?

[gazza]

To be honest LDV you are in la la land. anyways.

 

hows this for a twist.

 

Say iran have the nukes allready built and made ready to go, thay leak the trigger docs to the press like so.

The usa go in blow the hell out of where they think thay are. But remember thay has set it up.

 

Now after they bomb them, they have good cause to return now as an act of war has been done. And with that a nuc war begins.

well least we wont have to worry about BA striking and if we have to pay any debts back.

 

But you can bet one thing for sure belly up still be here going wheres my money

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I'm wondering how long you'd last in the supposedly "hard done by" Iranian nation spouting your BS LDV.

 

My money is a stoning to death before the first day is out. Hows that for oppresion?

I am not a fan of the Iranian regime. I think it is one of worst regimes on the planet at the moment. But that isn't the point and doesn't have anything to do with why the USA wants to put a stop to proliferation. I know you are inclined to see the Uk and USA as being the bringers of justice to the world through war and intervention but it isn't the reality I'm afraid. You should know that from serving in the military.

 

In terms of its treatment by the USA and UK, yes it is a 'hard done by' country. Just read through its history.

 

To be honest LDV you are in la la land. anyways.

 

hows this for a twist...

Erm...yeah. That's a twist. And I live in lala land?

[MilitantDogOwner]

I know you are inclined to see the Uk and USA as being the bringers of justice to the world through war and intervention but it isn't the reality I'm afraid. You should know that from serving in the military.

 

Yes I did serve in the military, and I have been to the Middle East. And I have also seen how Muslim nations treat the "infidel".

 

Iran is trying to provoke the West into attacking it so it can take some moral high ground.

 

Everything I need to know about the Iranian leadership is from Ahkmud I'm A Dinner Jacket (Mock the Week) is his "We will not rest until the state of Isreal is irradicated/wiped from the earth" (can't remember the exact wording).

 

Iran is goading the West hoping to draw it into a conflict. Its like when a piss head squares up to you constantly saying "go on, go on hit me, go on, think your hard? Go on hit me" and when you do hit them they run off calling foul.

 

Lala, when the big sun shine bombs start going off, its going to be a much harsher world than the one your currently in. Try discussing you views on worker rights when people are stoving each others heads in over a tin of beans.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

And what does the manner in which infidels are treated mean in relevance to Iran?

 

Where the hell do you get this stupid idea from the Iran is building nuclear weapons so it can use them and sacrifice itself for the purposes of some symbolic gesture?

 

Having already come across your bizarre and racially framed viewpoints on African conflicts I am beginning to realise that you really must have felt you were on some civilising mission when you served with the Good and Glorious. You complete reduce the politicians in these countries to nothing more than irrational and foolish children who cannot possibly be competent enough to play the same game as other nation states in seeking stability, deterrence, power, etc.

 

Iran cannot benefit from being invaded, bombed, threatened, etc. The politicians are not stupid.

 

Whether the Iranian president said what he did or not, Iran can't wipe Israel off the face of the earth. If it even attempted to do so it would itself be obliterated. It isn't going to make much sense to threaten another nuclear weapon state with the same type of weapons unless you can come off lightly.

[gazza]

And what does the manner in which infidels are treated mean in relevance to Iran?

 

Where the hell do you get this stupid idea from the Iran is building nuclear weapons so it can use them and sacrifice itself for the purposes of some symbolic gesture?

 

Having already come across your bizarre and racially framed viewpoints on African conflicts I am beginning to realise that you really must have felt you were on some civilising mission when you served with the Good and Glorious. You complete reduce the politicians in these countries to nothing more than irrational and foolish children who cannot possibly be competent enough to play the same game as other nation states in seeking stability, deterrence, power, etc.

 

Iran cannot benefit from being invaded, bombed, threatened, etc. The politicians are not stupid.

 

Whether the Iranian president said what he did or not, Iran can't wipe Israel off the face of the earth. If it even attempted to do so it would itself be obliterated. It isn't going to make much sense to threaten another nuclear weapon state with the same type of weapons unless you can come off lightly.

 

Its the ones that are not in charge that worrys me,

just think how easy would it be to bride one of the people in charge for the bomb, that is what this is about the fact that somebody that coulden careless about what happins getting hold of something like this.

 

Do you think its worth the risk LDV, when the whole state of the world could be in the hands of one pay check to a guard on duty, i dont

[MilitantDogOwner]

Having already come across your bizarre and racially framed viewpoints on African conflicts I am beginning to realise that you really must have felt you were on some civilising mission when you served with the Good and Glorious. You complete reduce the politicians in these countries to nothing more than irrational and foolish children who cannot possibly be competent enough to play the same game as other nation states in seeking stability, deterrence, power, etc.

 

I fear it is you with the radical views old bean.

 

I was not on a civilising mission (not sure where you dreamed that chestnut up from). In Zimbabwe it was an evacuation operation.

 

And I am slightly insulted by your use of the term "Good and Glorious". You say it as if the Armed forces are a dirty and disgusting thing. Well LDV, you're not worth the shit on the lowliest serviceman.

 

"You complete reduce the politicians in these countries to nothing more than irrational and foolish children who cannot possibly be competent enough to play the same game as other nation states in seeking stability, deterrence, power, etc"

 

I didn't need to. The politicians did that all by themselves. Mugabe is a prime example.

[manxy]

Wikipedia on Iran was interesting especially with regards Foreign relations and military Iran Wikipedia Link & although I could copy and paste bits that caught my eye, I'm sure it's best left to others to ponder their viewpoints.

 

More Links

2007 NY papers ref Ahmadinejad

 

Warning before using this next link. My computer denoted that this site is untrustworthy and also indicated a child safety warning.

Warning - Iran Press service link

Brief clips state

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

 

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran.

 

Analysts said not only Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani’s speech was the strongest against Israel, but also this is the first time that a prominent leader of the Islamic Republic openly suggests the use of nuclear weapon against the Jewish State."

-------------------------------

There was more talk as like above and I have to admit, I didn't expect such strong words, but things don't look good at all.

[Matt Bawden]

The US and Israel would love to stick a puppet regime in Iran mainly because at the moment they are not part of the central banking system and therefore cannot be controlled as are Venezuela, Afghanistan and a few other countries.

 

Iran's presedent Adhimijad or whatever his name is never actually said "Israel should be wiped of the face of the planet". I believe that any Islamic fundamentalists are dangerous as are Christian fundamentalists and they should be curtailed.

 

Yes I know that the middle east is a dodgy subject and has been since time began, but I don't think this sabre rattling has anything to do with religion, I think the religion issue is used as a smokescreen.

 

LDV, your argument that because the UK, US and Israel have nuclear capability the Iranians should be able to have it too holds no water, they are a rogue state just as North Korea is and if they want nuclear capability then they ought to have played ball a bit more with the world police (whoever they are), that's just the way it is, some may like this, others may not.

[Chinahand]

LDV - I honesty do not get why you feel the need to support a rabid, homophobic, oppressive, reactionary, mysogenistic regime gaining the most destructive of weapons. Your distaste for our government is making you support ones far far more distasteful.

 

You've also got to be careful when you ascribe motives to people dominated by religious beliefs. Sure I firmly believe Tony Blairs religion was a part of his decision to wage war, but his brand of dogmatism is very minor to someone who believes in a hidden Iman bringing the world towards apocalypse - people may rationalize, but you have to be very careful saying people like Ahmadinejad are rational - their religion is not made of such stuff.

[Declan]

After the Casus Bellians I reckon we should sort out the Alpha Centurians.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Its the ones that are not in charge that worrys me,

just think how easy would it be to bride one of the people in charge for the bomb, that is what this is about the fact that somebody that coulden careless about what happins getting hold of something like this.

 

Do you think its worth the risk LDV, when the whole state of the world could be in the hands of one pay check to a guard on duty, i dont

What makes you think that the Iranian government is easy to bribe and would hand over a nuke?

 

And I am slightly insulted by your use of the term "Good and Glorious". You say it as if the Armed forces are a dirty and disgusting thing. Well LDV, you're not worth the shit on the lowliest serviceman.

British foreign policy is very often a dirty thing, the armed forces just carry it out. I said it in reference to your comments where you seem to believe that such forces are doing good in the world.

 

I didn't need to. The politicians did that all by themselves. Mugabe is a prime example.

And now we are on to Zimbabwe. Do they want nuclear weapons too?

 

LDV, your argument that because the UK, US and Israel have nuclear capability the Iranians should be able to have it too holds no water, they are a rogue state just as North Korea is and if they want nuclear capability then they ought to have played ball a bit more with the world police (whoever they are), that's just the way it is, some may like this, others may not.

What you are saying is that Iran doesn't play ball with the United States and UK and should therefore not have them because of this. I don't agree with this.

And I haven't argued that because those other states have nuclear weapons that means that Iran should, rather I am arguing that the USA, UK, and Israel have no credibility in asking Iran to stop development because they ARE nuclear weapons states that have ignored their pledges to eliminate their weapons. I use the same rules on them that they apply to others.

 

LDV - I honesty do not get why you feel the need to support a rabid, homophobic, oppressive, reactionary, mysogenistic regime gaining the most destructive of weapons. Your distaste for our government is making you support ones far far more distasteful.

I don't support the government per se. But I do support them when presented with a situation where international rules and norms are ignored by the strong and enforced upon the weak for the sake of the strong maintaining influence and control in the Middle East.

I think the Iranian is far, far worse than the British. But I cannot ignore that Iran has just as much justification in having nuclear weapons as any of those asking for it to stop developing them

 

You've also got to be careful when you ascribe motives to people dominated by religious beliefs. Sure I firmly believe Tony Blairs religion was a part of his decision to wage war, but his brand of dogmatism is very minor to someone who believes in a hidden Iman bringing the world towards apocalypse - people may rationalize, but you have to be very careful saying people like Ahmadinejad are rational - their religion is not made of such stuff.

Ok, but made of what stuff? The fear that is bred on ignorance seems to be that such religious people would use these weapons. But this is very very unlikely. The purpose for these weapons is deterrence. Though it certainly has a lot to do with international status and prestige.

[gazza]

Its the ones that are not in charge that worrys me,

just think how easy would it be to bride one of the people in charge for the bomb, that is what this is about the fact that somebody that coulden careless about what happins getting hold of something like this.

 

Do you think its worth the risk LDV, when the whole state of the world could be in the hands of one pay check to a guard on duty, i dont

What makes you think that the Iranian government is easy to bribe and would hand over a nuke?

 

I diden say the iranian goverment, i said the staff that are in charge of it. its amazing what a wad full of cash would buy.

[Chinahand]

LDV - I honesty do not get why you feel the need to support a rabid, homophobic, oppressive, reactionary, mysogenistic regime gaining the most destructive of weapons. Your distaste for our government is making you support ones far far more distasteful.

 

I don't support the government per se. But I do support them when ...

... they have an opportunity to gain weaponry which will allow them to threaten vast destruction. Don't you see how contradictory that is?!

 

Your faith in the rationality of religious based revolutionaries who have murdered and imprisoned hundreds of thousands for such crimes as wanting to join together to organise unions or study political ideas at variance to the government's, or have unconventional lifestyles like your own is, in my mind, typical of your incredible nievity.

 

Do you really believe Iranian command and control will be world class? Do you really think that an Iranian bomb will reduce tensions in the Middle East - or increase them with the concomitant risks that a minor issue will tumble out of control.

 

Your attitude seems to be that an nuclear Iranian regime wouldn't then use the deterent advantage it has gained to be more confident in pushing its agenda on the world stage. Or you seem to say that its fine for them to push that agenda - really?

 

There is a recognized risk that a nuclear armed state may engage in more bellicos activities believing it is protected under its nuclear umbrella - McArthur very nearly got the US involved in a war with China due to such an attitude - and Kruschov pushed the US to within inches of war.

 

Your attitude is well the big boys can murder and war and steal so lets allow the little guys to behave the same. Well let me be blunt - firstly the behaviour of the big boys should be moderated and not emulated, and not all political agendas are the same - your moral relativism makes you see oppression in all things - including voluntary agreements - and you seem to see all oppression as being alike.

 

Well its not. If you think the Iraqi people are just as oppressed now as when they were under Saddam Hussein you are wrong. If you think the invasion was all about American control of oil you are missing a big piece of the picture.

 

The Iranian Revolution was a backwards step for Iranian Society - those that have pushed that revolutionary agenda want to export it and encourage those with similar faiths to be converted to revolution. They plot that revolution in Lebanon, in the Gulf, and seek to widen their influence and power. That is a bad thing. LDV are you really going to claim otherwise. That revolution will reduce human freedoms, enslave people in religious dogma and use violence to achieve it.

 

If you approve of such things then you are like that vicar who praised the faith and loyalty of the Taliban. Just because you want a revolution - though you have no idea what you hope to achieve in that revolution - doesn't mean you should support all revolutionaries. Allowing the Iranian regime to gain power is inimical to your ideas of fraternity or whatever collectivist mumbo jumbo you ascribe to.