Islam4uk March Through Wootton Bassett

[jimbms]

Besides, you have no idea of the bonds that have formed whilst working for Kentucky Fried Chicken. The friendships and love in our shop are worth far more your comradery. It's not easy to make finger lickin' chicken.

One second, let's get this right. You do or have worked for an organisation that donated millions to support the good ol' US of A in it's war efforts, that exploits 3rd world food producers by paying the minimum amount for produce on what is in effect slave labour farms, is guilty of animal cruelty in the way it factory farms chickens and force feeds them hormones and various genetic drugs dwsigned to make them more meaty and have less bone density, it poisons people with the massive amounts of additives it puts in its produce, has been fined more for hygene breaches than any other fast food company, suppresses unions amongst it's workers and it pays the bare minimum wage and offers little facilities to it's workers. Oh and to add it's leader is a self confessed religous biggot and racist.

 

You hypocrite, how dare you comment on other peoples ideals when you are not only condoning this but helping to build the wealth and political status of what you so openly campaign against, and don't give the bullshit you need to work to survive there are other jobs you could have done, at least have the bollocks to stand up for your pricipals you spineless wimp.

[Rog]

Besides, you have no idea of the bonds that have formed whilst working for Kentucky Fried Chicken. The friendships and love in our shop are worth far more your comradery. It's not easy to make finger lickin' chicken.

One second, let's get this right. You do or have worked for an organisation that donated millions to support the good ol' US of A in it's war efforts, that exploits 3rd world food producers by paying the minimum amount for produce on what is in effect slave labour farms, is guilty of animal cruelty in the way it factory farms chickens and force feeds them hormones and various genetic drugs dwsigned to make them more meaty and have less bone density, it poisons people with the massive amounts of additives it puts in its produce, has been fined more for hygene breaches than any other fast food company, suppresses unions amongst it's workers and it pays the bare minimum wage and offers little facilities to it's workers. Oh and to add it's leader is a self confessed religous biggot and racist.

 

You hypocrite, how dare you comment on other peoples ideals when you are not only condoning this but helping to build the wealth and political status of what you so openly campaign against, and don't give the bullshit you need to work to survive there are other jobs you could have done, at least have the bollocks to stand up for your pricipals you spineless wimp.

 

Hard words --- but sound cobservation.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't work for KFC. But it does do finger lickin' chicken, I must admit, although I haven't had a hot wing in years.

 

In any case, most (if not all) would be hard pressed to find some waged work or some aspect of their wage spending they undertake that does not have some involvement whether direct or indirect, voluntarily or involuntary with some of the worst aspects of exploitation in the world. Few, if any, corporations have a good record on exploitation.

[jimbms]

I don't work for KFC. .......

Besides, you have no idea of the bonds that have formed whilst working for Kentucky Fried Chicken. The friendships and love in our shop are worth far more your comradery. It's not easy to make finger lickin' chicken.

So you lied

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I did, aren't I awful? Someone made a comment about me working in KFC months ago and I just went with it. Hehe.

[macmannin]

I find it hard to see how the UK squaddies are brave,I would say more foolish and mostly young lads with little other option for work/adreniline buzz.The soldiers in the past,whatever side who went over the trenches knowing the horror that awaited them,thats brave.

[Chinahand]

I feel that the extremes of this debate - both BNP and Islamofascist are attempting to provoke with all this, while in reality the vast majority have sympathy for both sides of this issue.

 

I respect the squaddies who sacrifice their lives and independence to follow the orders of the state.

 

I find LDV's rhetoric overblown. The world is a complex place and the UK does do things which make it worse, but overall I do not think choosing to serve in the British Armed Forces is a wrong. I think overall that the UK's military adventures over the last 10 to 15 years will bring more good into the world than if they'd not acted - in Bosnia, in Sierra Leone, even in Iraq where the current body count IS less than the average Saddam created during his long terror.

 

So I would and do stand in solemn respect for those who are killed and disabled through their service.

 

But also I do believe our leaders are culpable in the deaths of hundreds of thousands through acting without sufficient preparation, over-reaching themselves and waging two campaigns with wavering attentions over the last 6 or so years.

 

These wars have been badly fought and the people's of the countries attacked sufferred greatly from our hubris.

 

And so I would be willing to stand before an empty coffin in solemn penetence to those killed in our wars of choice.

 

I don't think my opinions are so divergent from most people in the UK, or those standing in respect in Wootton Bassett.

 

Manshimajin I don't see this demonstration as necessarily being an insult to the people of WB - I can definitely imagine a scenario where the population does stand in thoughtful silence for the deaths caused - the insult is in the Islamic group claiming that respect for dead squaddies means disrespect for dead Muslims. That simply isn't so.

 

But the Islamic extremists don't want to see or acknowlege that most people are saddenned by the wars and the casualties they cause. They want an image of themselves as isolated matrys hated by the local population which they are then justified in terrorizing.

 

And the BNP and their ilk want to make political capital from racial divisions and telling its consituency that they will fight the Muslims.

 

I would go to Wootton Basset - peacefully quitely stand holding a banner saying:

 

I respect and support our servicemen.

I regret Iraqi and Afghan war deaths.

 

I support the right to peacefully demonstrate

 

Violence begats violence.

 

There can be no compulsion in religion.

 

Our society is a tolerant one, do not abuse that.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think overall that the UK's military adventures over the last 10 to 15 years will bring more good into the world than if they'd not acted - in Bosnia, in Sierra Leone, even in Iraq where the current body count IS less than the average Saddam created during his long terror.

 

Britain's role in those regions was simply to maintain economic stability and control in those regions. Not missions operated out of goodWILL. Although Operation Palliser was also carried out to maintain the limited influence in Sierra Leone. It is quite incidental that the results were better than they might have been.

 

But even if British actions do bring a better result for SOME, that doesn't justify the actions taken. I think we disagree, but there has to be a extremely good reason for the use of violence by anyone. What we witnessed was the US and British state use poor excuses to invade these countries and conduct warfare. In Afghanistan this displayed itself the these two countries adopting a disregard for extradition protocol and then invading. And then having failed to eliminate Al Qaeda in that country then embarked on a different war that focused almost solely on the Taliban, a new chosen enemy. Britain's decision to enter the war and continue it was only permissible but apply a different standards or morals to which we would want to have applied to us if it was the United States that wanted terrorists to be handed over to them.

 

And so I would be willing to stand before an empty coffin in solemn penetence to those killed in our wars of choice.

And if you really do genuinely care about those who have died in these wars the government has chose to embark on then fair enough. But look at the disparity between how we show such sympathy or feign sympathy and yet care little about this war and its continuation. Many are hoodwinked into thinking that is a worthy conflict, but most appear clueless. Just some wooly ideas offering from the newspapers about how terrible the Taliban are. And yet that seems all the justification the British public need to feeling content that the war can carry on - some new people called bad guys being killed on some supposed humanitarian mission.

 

But the Islamic extremists don't want to see or acknowlege that most people are saddenned by the wars and the casualties they cause. They want an image of themselves as isolated matrys hated by the local population which they are then justified in terrorizing.

Yet those who are genuinely saddened are trapped by their inability to look further than their sadness and to actually decide whether this war is worth fighting. And anyone with an adherence to the morality of out society would declare that it is not.

 

I... support our servicemen.

You support the war? I thought you said you didn't.

Violence begats violence.

It OFTEN does, but (with respect) how is that relevant?

Our society is a tolerant one, do not abuse that.

Even if they might be right about the war?

[gazza]

I would go to Wootton Basset - peacefully quitely stand holding a banner saying:

 

I respect and support our servicemen.

I regret Iraqi and Afghan war deaths.

 

I support the right to peacefully demonstrate

 

Violence begats violence.

 

There can be no compulsion in religion.

 

Our society is a tolerant one, do not abuse that.

 

you must have some length of arms on you .

 

but good post as allways

[manshimajin]

Manshimajin I don't see this demonstration as necessarily being an insult to the people of WB - I can definitely imagine a scenario where the population does stand in thoughtful silence for the deaths caused - the insult is in the Islamic group claiming that respect for dead squaddies means disrespect for dead Muslims. That simply isn't so.

 

But the Islamic extremists don't want to see or acknowlege that most people are saddenned by the wars and the casualties they cause. They want an image of themselves as isolated matrys hated by the local population which they are then justified in terrorizing.

Chinahand I agree with most of what you say - I suspect very few people actively support the political aspects of going to war in Iraq or Afghanistan but also feel an enormous amount of sorrow for the families of the soldiers who have died in the conflict.

 

In relation to Wootton Bassett my actual comment was not that a demonstration is an insult but that any truly serious and thoughtful demonstrator would understood not to on pick on a highly sensitive and emotion laden location. As I understand it the good folk of WB are expressing solidarity with the bereaved and honouring the dead who pass through their town. They are not supporting war. They are sorrowing at the consequences of it.

 

I see attempts to piggy-back on their display of support for bereaved families as being totally manipulative, culturally insensitive, lacking in basic human decency and likely to do the moderate Muslim cause a huge amount of damage in everyone elses' eyes.

 

Maybe the best idea would be as has been suggested for the population of WB to turn out and to stand silently with appropriate placards so the world's media (whose attention in reality the demonstrators are proposing to stage this for - otherwise they would not have hosen WB knowing it to be provocative) get a background of tolerant but entirely opposed comments.

 

If any one is genuinely wanting to make a change in relation to wars the UK is involved in then there is the ballot box and a vote for the Lib-Dems.

 

PS _ for LDV - the 'circle'. Coventionally we talk of left and right wings politically as if exreme right and extreme left were somehow opposites. IMO their behaviour, dogmatism and their utter disregard of other people's views - and the sense that they are the only ones who could possibly be right - make them much more similar than different - hence the model I see is not a straight line but a circle that aligns the extremes alongside each another.

[Rog]

I feel that the extremes of this debate - both BNP and Islamofascist are attempting to provoke with all this, while in reality the vast majority have sympathy for both sides of this issue.

 

I respect the squaddies who sacrifice their lives and independence to follow the orders of the state.

 

I find LDV's rhetoric overblown. The world is a complex place and the UK does do things which make it worse, but overall I do not think choosing to serve in the British Armed Forces is a wrong. I think overall that the UK's military adventures over the last 10 to 15 years will bring more good into the world than if they'd not acted - in Bosnia, in Sierra Leone, even in Iraq where the current body count IS less than the average Saddam created during his long terror.

 

So I would and do stand in solemn respect for those who are killed and disabled through their service.

 

But also I do believe our leaders are culpable in the deaths of hundreds of thousands through acting without sufficient preparation, over-reaching themselves and waging two campaigns with wavering attentions over the last 6 or so years.

 

These wars have been badly fought and the people's of the countries attacked sufferred greatly from our hubris.

 

And so I would be willing to stand before an empty coffin in solemn penetence to those killed in our wars of choice.

 

I don't think my opinions are so divergent from most people in the UK, or those standing in respect in Wootton Bassett.

 

Manshimajin I don't see this demonstration as necessarily being an insult to the people of WB - I can definitely imagine a scenario where the population does stand in thoughtful silence for the deaths caused - the insult is in the Islamic group claiming that respect for dead squaddies means disrespect for dead Muslims. That simply isn't so.

 

But the Islamic extremists don't want to see or acknowlege that most people are saddenned by the wars and the casualties they cause. They want an image of themselves as isolated matrys hated by the local population which they are then justified in terrorizing.

 

And the BNP and their ilk want to make political capital from racial divisions and telling its consituency that they will fight the Muslims.

 

I would go to Wootton Basset - peacefully quitely stand holding a banner saying:

 

I respect and support our servicemen.

I regret Iraqi and Afghan war deaths.

 

I support the right to peacefully demonstrate

 

Violence begats violence.

 

There can be no compulsion in religion.

 

Our society is a tolerant one, do not abuse that.

 

The ONLY point I would make is that I doubt if you understand the way that ‘there is no compunction in religion’ is intended in the koran (Sura 2 : 256).

 

It DOES NOT mean that as far as the principles of Islam are concerned people are free to chose the path they want to follow without let or hindrance.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

They are not supporting war. They are sorrowing at the consequences of it.

They are not directly supporting war, but they are supporting the very sentiments and ideas behind their purpose and role in life that allows such wars to continue today and in the future. When such people are honoured with disrespectful talk of fighting for freedom, fighting for their country, and having a noble deaths it simply makes it all the more easy to allow further deaths to go without comment and without much thought. It allow people to pay less attention to the purpose of such wars and moral issues we need to face in supporting them.

 

I see attempts to piggy-back on their display of support for bereaved families as being totally manipulative, culturally insensitive, lacking in basic human decency...

And I do agree. However, though SOME may be saddened by such British servicemen deaths it is quite obvious that patriotic and jingoistic sentiments which lead people to offer only their interest when people have died to be an unintended but grossly indecent way of piggybacking on the deaths of people who have died.

 

Maybe the best idea would be as has been suggested for the population of WB to turn out and to stand silently with appropriate placards so the world's media (whose attention in reality the demonstrators are proposing to stage this for - otherwise they would not have hosen WB knowing it to be provocative) get a background of tolerant but entirely opposed comments.

I agree.

 

If any one is genuinely wanting to make a change in relation to wars the UK is involved in then there is the ballot box and a vote for the Lib-Dems.

Erm...no. The Liberal Dems aren't that different from Labour in their foreign policy. These wars would be fought regardless of what political party was in power.

 

Coventionally we talk of left and right wings politically as if exreme right and extreme left were somehow opposites. IMO their behaviour, dogmatism and their utter disregard of other people's views - and the sense that they are the only ones who could possibly be right - make them much more similar than different - hence the model I see is not a straight line but a circle that aligns the extremes alongside each another.

I think you are misusing the terms right-wing and left-wing. Rather you believe I am simply being dogmatic in my views. Maybe I am. But it is hard not to display a level of moral superiority in this particular matter when the morality our society professes to abide by is abandoned by supporting such a war and attributing noble sentiments to those who fight in it.

And let's face it, how can compete against the dogma that surrounds how the military are perceived.

 

Comparison really ought to made about previous wars of aggression by other countries (which no doubt makes it easier to be objective about) and then consider applying the same domestic circumstances that we have here in another country.

[Rog]

They are not supporting war. They are sorrowing at the consequences of it.

They are not directly supporting war, but they are supporting the very sentiments and ideas behind their purpose and role in life that allows such wars to continue today and in the future. When such people are honoured with disrespectful talk of fighting for freedom, fighting for their country, and having a noble deaths it simply makes it all the more easy to allow further deaths to go without comment and without much thought. It allow people to pay less attention to the purpose of such wars and moral issues we need to face in supporting them.

 

I see attempts to piggy-back on their display of support for bereaved families as being totally manipulative, culturally insensitive, lacking in basic human decency...

And I do agree. However, though SOME may be saddened by such British servicemen deaths it is quite obvious that patriotic and jingoistic sentiments which lead people to offer only their interest when people have died to be an unintended but grossly indecent way of piggybacking on the deaths of people who have died.

 

Maybe the best idea would be as has been suggested for the population of WB to turn out and to stand silently with appropriate placards so the world's media (whose attention in reality the demonstrators are proposing to stage this for - otherwise they would not have hosen WB knowing it to be provocative) get a background of tolerant but entirely opposed comments.

I agree.

 

If any one is genuinely wanting to make a change in relation to wars the UK is involved in then there is the ballot box and a vote for the Lib-Dems.

Erm...no. The Liberal Dems aren't that different from Labour in their foreign policy. These wars would be fought regardless of what political party was in power.

 

Coventionally we talk of left and right wings politically as if exreme right and extreme left were somehow opposites. IMO their behaviour, dogmatism and their utter disregard of other people's views - and the sense that they are the only ones who could possibly be right - make them much more similar than different - hence the model I see is not a straight line but a circle that aligns the extremes alongside each another.

I think you are misusing the terms right-wing and left-wing. Rather you believe I am simply being dogmatic in my views. Maybe I am. But it is hard not to display a level of moral superiority in this particular matter when the morality our society professes to abide by is abandoned by supporting such a war and attributing noble sentiments to those who fight in it.

 

 

Let me ask you a question, two actually.

 

First, in your opinion is any war right and secondly if so, what defines a moral war and can you gibe examples.

[Chinahand]

It is quite incidental that the results were better than they might have been.

I disagree with you quite alot over this - I think it isn't incidental at all - infact they are strongly parallel each other - the UK population won't stand for any and all military adventurism no matter how useful to the 'elite' as you put it. They can be pursuaded to support adventurism if they believe the end result is a better situation - in Afghanistan and Iraq most people agreed that Saddam or the Taliban operated benighted governments which terrorized their populations.

 

Getting rid of them was a good thing.

 

When those two factors combine - population sees military action as being justified, government sees it as being in its interest - then wars are likely. When they don't coincide I believe it is far more difficult for an 'elite' to force its opinion - for all the demonstrations the wars did have majority support when they started, and many people have the opinion we shouldn't leave until the situation is stabilized - that has started occur in Iraq and so the UK has left, but is still a long way away in Afghanistan.

 

I... support our servicemen.

You support the war? I thought you said you didn't.

Er - what - where? I think I've been pretty consistent in supporting the strategy of stabilizing Iraq and Afghanistan with governments which are more tolerent and open. Tactically its been a total mess, but I've always supported the basic war aims.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well, like I said, violence has be justified. But it is an extremely difficult thing to justify. We do not allow violence within our own societies except in specific circumstances, and even these are controversial. And we hold true to these values in our considerations of how we would response to particular acts originating from other western countries. The hypocrisy is when we abandon these moral values when our government threatens the poorer nations.

 

A war can be justified, or rather a war can be justified if for example the result was to end up under control of a more oppressive regime. WW2, for example, would be justified as a national war. However, I find that almost all national wars are unjust given the interests of those who initiate the war and those who suffer most from it.