African Conservatives Criminalise Gays

[Terse]

Guardian link

 

A court in Malawi today denied bail to two men arrested after becoming the first gay couple to marry in the conservative African country.

Magistrate Nyakwawa Usiwausiwa told a packed court that he could not grant the couple bail, saying the ruling was for their own protection. "The public out there is angry with them," Usiwausiwa said.

Tiwonge Chimbalanga and Steven Monjeza committed to marriage in a symbolic ceremony in southern Malawi last month, attracting hundreds of onlookers. They were arrested at the home they share and charged with unnatural practices between males and gross public indecency.

Campaigners have described the case as symbolic of a return to conservative attitudes to homosexuality in parts of Africa. Uganda is debating the introduction of the death penalty for some offences.

 

Personally, I've no interest in other people's sexual orientation (although I'd prefer it everyone just kept quiet about it because its no concern of anyone else), but this kind of reaction - encouraged by certain churches - sounds more like vendetta than justice.

[manxy]

Guardian link

 

A court in Malawi today denied bail to two men arrested after becoming the first gay couple to marry in the conservative African country.

Magistrate Nyakwawa Usiwausiwa told a packed court that he could not grant the couple bail, saying the ruling was for their own protection. "The public out there is angry with them," Usiwausiwa said.

Tiwonge Chimbalanga and Steven Monjeza committed to marriage in a symbolic ceremony in southern Malawi last month, attracting hundreds of onlookers. They were arrested at the home they share and charged with unnatural practices between males and gross public indecency.

Campaigners have described the case as symbolic of a return to conservative attitudes to homosexuality in parts of Africa. Uganda is debating the introduction of the death penalty for some offences.

 

Personally, I've no interest in other people's sexual orientation (although I'd prefer it everyone just kept quiet about it because its no concern of anyone else), but this kind of reaction - encouraged by certain churches - sounds more like vendetta than justice.

Sounds like a right cock up

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Personally, I've no interest in other people's sexual orientation (although I'd prefer it everyone just kept quiet about it because its no concern of anyone else), but this kind of reaction - encouraged by certain churches - sounds more like vendetta than justice.

Judging by how straight people behave I thought sexual orientation was everybody's business? Can't go anywhere without it being put in front of your face. Doesn't bother me. Why does it bother you?

 

It looks like all these despicable regimes with people with polluted and enslaved minds through religion are trying to adopt anti-homosexuality policies. It is very sad. Very sad that it is going on and that people who are just getting on with their lives have to suffer such unjustified punishments. In Nigeria you cannot express yourself in any way whatsoever. Ever accessing a gay support service is punishable.

Someone needs to takes a gun to the heads to the heads of those who write up and endorse these laws - maybe that might serve as a deterrent.

[jimbms]

So now LDV you condone violence to force anyone who's views you disagree with to come to your way of thinking, you must be turning American or Islamic

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Are you a fucking moron? What would think would be appropriate if the Manx government soon decided to punish heterosexual people for displaying sexuality in any way shape or form, thus eliminating their ability to express themselves. Laws that throw heterosexuals in prison for organising a marriage and laws that provide for the death sentence if a man and a woman have sex?

 

When the people are oppressed and repressed to such an extent I do endorse violence in response to the violence that is threatened upon such people.

[jimbms]

But the Isle of Man have not nor will in the near future pass such a law nor will I think any country worldwide, you are talking here about countries that due to being led by religious law regard homosexuality as immoral even if they are wrong, it is their issue and the issue of their people and not that of those outside their cummunity who wish to impose their own beliefs like yourself. thus cannot compare this issue to hetrosexuality or go on theoretical situations but to quote yourself violent punishment or imprisonment is not the answer, could we not just give these officials Counselling or community service as violence is wrong as a punishment. You can't have it both ways.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But the Isle of Man have not nor will in the near future pass such a law nor will I think any country worldwide, you are talking here about countries that due to being led by religious law regard homosexuality as immoral even if they are wrong, it is their issue and the issue of their people and not that of those outside their cummunity who wish to impose their own beliefs like yourself.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. What sort of morality do you have! It's appalling. I am talking here about people in other countries who through the influence of the religious beliefs are persecuted and oppressed BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE.

The laws that govern those who are persecuted are not THEIR laws. They have been created and imposed to eliminate or severely marginalise them.

I don't have the power to impose a change in the law their but we are right to condemn and criticise and point out how disgusting these governments are. There are no cultural or ethical matters to consider here, just whether you care about those who will meet the barbarism of their legal system by being human.

I believe in democracy and liberty - apparently these African countries are supposed to as well. We have absolutely every right to condemn those governments who oppress their people!

 

I never know whether you are on a wind up or not.

 

thus cannot compare this issue to hetrosexuality or go on theoretical situations

You haven't demonstrated anything.

 

but to quote yourself violent punishment or imprisonment is not the answer, could we not just give these officials Counselling or community service as violence is wrong as a punishment. You can't have it both ways.

You seem to mistake dishing out punishment for crimes and removing those involved in structure of the institutions that create them. I am not talking about violence being used as a punishment. I am talking about violence being used to eliminate them if it is expedient. It may not be, it just may be more fitting for those who use their power and control to kill others.

[Rhumsaa]

jmibms is correct - you cannot enforce your views onto another country

 

why do you have any greater right to have your opinion believed over theirs?

 

you wouldn't like it if they insisted you are jailed for buggery or whatnot

[gazza]

jmibms is correct - you cannot enforce your views onto another country

 

i think u find he does

[Rhumsaa]

I for one would contribute to a plane ticket for LDV to Malawi

[slinkydevil]

Someone needs to takes a gun to the heads to the heads of those who write up and endorse these laws - maybe that might serve as a deterrent.

 

Born a little earlier would you be taking 'a gun to the heads to the heads of those who write up and endorse these laws' in the Isle of Man pre 1992 when sodomy was illegal however wrong that was?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

jmibms is correct - you cannot enforce your views onto another country

 

why do you have any greater right to have your opinion believed over theirs?

 

you wouldn't like it if they insisted you are jailed for buggery or whatnot

 

No, you cannot enforce your views onto another country - in that I do not have power to change the laws there and cannot stop what is going on. But I wouldn't have a problem with anyone else removing such laws whether that be another nation or competing authority within that country.

 

And I am sorry Rhumsaa but under line of thinking is this grossly stupid argument coming from that 'every country has their own laws and that it is the people's will'? Nobody has yet adequately explained it to me. I am afraid we don't live in a world where there are laws determined by the people. Some countries, such as the UK, have members of the public vote for political parties who are given carte blanche to draw up they laws the parties want - this isn't even popular deicisionmaking. But most countries have even less of a democratic element to their government than we do. The laws aren't the people's law, but those who have power and those few who want to direct matters in society as they see fit.

 

There is the appallingly ignorant mentality that these are other cultures and therefore should be allowed to do as they please without criticism. The argument that cultural differences should simply be respected because they are different and we can't possibly understand them and certainly shouldn't criticise - possibly out of some sensitivity and related misunderstanding of racism. It seems to be a thinking that people are showing where they believe that are being enlightened and fair, when they are being quite the opposite.

 

These are other human beings were are talking about. Whether or not they are being treated despicably by their government or by their people is not the issue.

 

And there are moral standards that ARE superior. What about allowance of liberty as long as it does not curtail another person's liberty?. What about treating others as we would like to be treated. In this case, why should someone who has done no harm to others be treated with such sickening treatment - medical tests, denial of bail, certain punishment, and even simply the intervention of the state in this matter.

 

Where do you want to run with the argument? Is it quite acceptable and can we not condemn the Iranian law system that hangs a couple of teenage boys who had sex together? Does we not condemn the Sharia Laws that reduce people to some slavery under some imagine God? Do we not criticise the situation for women who are treated as little more than slaves and pieces of property? Do we not condemn that mutiliation of female genitalia in some Muslim countries?

 

Don't forget, however, that the cultural beliefs that I am criticising here are Christian ones or prejudice. In no society do these deserve respect, not in the least.

 

Maybe instead of getting all confused in this moral problem you should actually think about considering those who have no say in the matter, who are at the whim of the state to decide whether they should be punished for maybe 14 years in prison and where they have already been beaten.

 

If you respect their Christian influence beliefs and the state authority then you have no respect or regard to those who fall prey to them and little care for others.

[Rog]

jmibms is correct - you cannot enforce your views onto another country

 

why do you have any greater right to have your opinion believed over theirs?

 

you wouldn't like it if they insisted you are jailed for buggery or whatnot

 

No, you cannot enforce your views onto another country - in that I do not have power to change the laws there and cannot stop what is going on. But I wouldn't have a problem with anyone else removing such laws whether that be another nation or competing authority within that country.

 

And I am sorry Rhumsaa but under line of thinking is this grossly stupid argument coming from that 'every country has their own laws and that it is the people's will'? Nobody has yet adequately explained it to me. I am afraid we don't live in a world where there are laws determined by the people. Some countries, such as the UK, have members of the public vote for political parties who are given carte blanche to draw up they laws the parties want - this isn't even popular deicisionmaking. But most countries have even less of a democratic element to their government than we do. The laws aren't the people's law, but those who have power and those few who want to direct matters in society as they see fit.

 

There is the appallingly ignorant mentality that these are other cultures and therefore should be allowed to do as they please without criticism. The argument that cultural differences should simply be respected because they are different and we can't possibly understand them and certainly shouldn't criticise - possibly out of some sensitivity and related misunderstanding of racism. It seems to be a thinking that people are showing where they believe that are being enlightened and fair, when they are being quite the opposite.

 

These are other human beings were are talking about. Whether or not they are being treated despicably by their government or by their people is not the issue.

 

And there are moral standards that ARE superior. What about allowance of liberty as long as it does not curtail another person's liberty?. What about treating others as we would like to be treated. In this case, why should someone who has done no harm to others be treated with such sickening treatment - medical tests, denial of bail, certain punishment, and even simply the intervention of the state in this matter.

 

Where do you want to run with the argument? Is it quite acceptable and can we not condemn the Iranian law system that hangs a couple of teenage boys who had sex together? Does we not condemn the Sharia Laws that reduce people to some slavery under some imagine God? Do we not criticise the situation for women who are treated as little more than slaves and pieces of property? Do we not condemn that mutiliation of female genitalia in some Muslim countries?

 

Don't forget, however, that the cultural beliefs that I am criticising here are Christian ones or prejudice. In no society do these deserve respect, not in the least.

 

Maybe instead of getting all confused in this moral problem you should actually think about considering those who have no say in the matter, who are at the whim of the state to decide whether they should be punished for maybe 14 years in prison and where they have already been beaten.

 

If you respect their Christian influence beliefs and the state authority then you have no respect or regard to those who fall prey to them and little care for others.

 

Given carte blanche? Good grief man, have you NO grasp of reality?

 

Of real politick?

 

Elected governments can do a great deal, but the real world means that there are limits that cut in despite the theoretical.

 

Let’s assume that an elected government with a comfortable majority decided to introduce an Act (and here I go to the extreme to prove the point) that all dogs must have one leg removed.

 

In theory it would be possible for such legislation to get onto the statute books, but in practice there would be back bench revolts to end them all.

 

MP’s are selfish bastards, and the prospect of being kicked off their local constituency list, or making re-election an absolute impossibility would ensure that the majority would totally ignore the Whips, there would be a ‘night of the ling knives’, and the PM of the day would be unseated in very short order.

 

It may be wonderful and Brave New World libertarian thinking that everyone should live in joyous happy co-operation, Libertarianism may well look like the path to get to the closest that life could be to Utopia, except for one thing.

 

We’re dealing with people.

 

The Human Condition is such that there will ALWAYS be nasty self centered bastards who don’t give a toss about others as long as they’re getting what they want. Who would sell their own grandmother into prostitution had their father not beaten them to it.

 

And know what? It’s a bloody good thing there are because it’s those same characteristics that let us evolve into what we are today.

 

OF COURSE we are entitled to criticizes what other people do in the own countries --- but that should be the absolute limit. There is no way that we should involve ourselves in regime change or even supporting one political movement over another.

 

Their country, their law.

 

In this case did it ever dawn on you that what the likely outcome to the arrest of a pair of poufs will be in the long term?

 

It will be exactly the same as the outcome has been in THIS country, added disquiet by the population to restrictive legislation, dissatisfaction with the status quo, and change will come by evolving society.

 

YOU may not like the way that law is decided and how government works but do keep in mind that it is a process that has evolved and though far from perfect is working very well relative to society as it is and people as they are.

 

When society changes in Malawi changes then Malawi laws will change but those changes will be organic and should and must not be enforced as OUR laws and OUR society line up with OUR wants and needs.

 

You don’t like it?

 

Tough.

Far more people do even if only because what we have is the least worst option that presently is open to us taking into account what we are and the world that we live in.

 

Get used to it. You will find life will significantly improve for you if you loose the chips from your shoulder, even the ones you picked up working at KFC.

[Albert Tatlock]

It's at times like this that I wish some people were not snowed-in, but snowed-out.

[Rog]

I for one would contribute to a plane ticket for LDV to Malawi

 

Best make it a single, he won’t be needing the return half.