African Conservatives Criminalise Gays

[Rog]

Amazing - do you really believe morality (deciding whether actions are wrong or correct) is entirely dependent on the laws of the country you happen to have been born in.

 

Morality is a thing that is determined by a society and social norms.

 

What we’re dealing with is law. If a person is not a resident citizen of a country then they can howl and yell to their hearts content if they see some other country getting up to something they don’t approve of with their own population and that is all they should do.

 

But even then if by howling and yelling they are inflaming a situation that would be better resolved with time they should keep quiet.

 

You arguing yourself into a corner, Rog - one you don't really believe in, but which you are struggling to maintain to be consistent with unthought out statements above.

 

You make an assumption that I’ve not thought about such things.

 

I have.

 

For nearly sixty years, since I first learned of such things, I’ve thought about how people with so much in common with myself could have worked as Sonderkommandos, how Jewish people could have filed onto trains knowing they were going to their deaths, how they could have led their kids into gas chambers, and much more besides.

 

What would I do as an individual? I would have made my own choices for myself, but I would not condemn anyone for the choices that they made.

 

What’s more I absolutely DO believe in what I put forward.

 

You have your own morality above any laws, you do not think the UN should be able to dictate, and you will not let another country take actions that affect you or you compadres –

 

Where have I ever said that the UN should not be able to dictate?

 

But dictate in a manner and in a way that is fair and even handed which is where the problems come in.

 

The disgraceful situation that came about after the UN stepped into what was a legitimate act of self defence by Israel, taken because the UN singularly failed to provide the mutual defence for both Israel and the Lebanese, was what brought the about the action in the first place.

 

In fact I believe the UN is a totally corrupt den of thieves with a markedly anti-Western agenda and a highly partisan manner of doing things, and that it should be replaced by something relevant to the world today, but that’s another matter.

 

And how do you conclude that I have a morality that is above any laws?

 

--- or are you really going to say Israel should take no action if say Iran decided to instigate a pogrom against its remaining Jewish community.

 

Israel should take no action against Iran if Iran decided to instigate a pogrom against its remaining Jewish community, other than offer a home for those who managed to escape and raise the issue at the UN Security Council. The UN and the security council is crap, but it’s the best crap there presently is.

[Chinahand]

For nearly sixty years, since I first learned of such things, I’ve thought about how people with so much in common with myself could have worked as Sonderkommandos, how Jewish people could have filed onto trains knowing they were going to their deaths, how they could have led their kids into gas chambers, and much more besides.

 

What would I do as an individual? I would have made my own choices for myself, but I would not condemn anyone for the choices that they made.

This is maybe too subtle for an internet conversation, but I don't think we are directly addressing the same issues.

 

Becoming a Sonderkommando isn't a free choice - you can't condemn someone who takes that choice to survive.

 

Deciding to ring the SS and say you've seen a Non-Jewish German sheltering a Jewish family is a far freer choice - and is I believe far more morally wrong.

 

This entire exchage has come about because you said:

 

If you see the law of the land being broken and it is the law of the land that all such offenses that are witnessed must be reported then that is EXACTLY what you should do.

 

I proundly disagree with this - there is a caveat - if not doing it would put you or your family at risk then the moral decision is far more complex - but if you can get away with opposing such barbarities then I believe it is right and moral that you should refuse to let the system do its evil - the passive response of complying with monsterous law will allow that evil do its work and the moral choice should be to oppose it.

 

You've made a very strong statement that people should EXACTLY follow a monstrous law just because it is a law - I find it amazing that you really believe that - that is how evil was done to your very relations.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You, LDV, maybe you've got it right for once.

 

Lets not send our troops off to die in a third world country to remove AQ and the Taliban.

 

Lets send them off to die in a third world country because they kill gay people.

 

I mean gay people are more important that stopping an oppressive regiem harbouring terrorists, terrorists that would have no problems blowing every man woman and child to kingdom come.

 

Yeah your bang on the money.

 

/sarcasm.

You seem to be of the mistaken idea that US and UK troops went to Afghanistan and fight in Afghanistan because they are on some humanitarian mission to free the people from oppression. This isn't the case. And no, I don't think it right that Afghanistan was invaded and the country subjected to airstrikes in order to capture Al Qaeda.

And I wasn't necessarily advocating nations to go to war for humanitarian reasons. It isn't how nation states operate independently or in military alliances.