University Students Are Being Failed In Exams Because They Quote Sayings From The Bible Or Qur'an As Scientific Facts

[DjDan]

You say you believe in miracles - got any evidence for one?

 

Interesting.. you ask me this question as if you care.

[Chinahand]

But DjDan, billions of people doubt Christ did many mighty miracles - and his apostles too. I don't get it - the way God created man from dust is such that he is totally invisible and can be explained away by remourseless nature working over eons of time.

 

In my view He only manifesteth himself to those who believe in him - to any sceptic viewing the many faiths which have people healing the sick, zooming great distances etc its impossible to understand which faith you should believe in.

 

Where are these great Miracles you are going on about. I honestly don't see them. Is the Miracle of Christ any greater than the Miracle of Mohammed's life, or Buddah's?

 

Try to see it from an outsider who see's mundane psychology and human sociology and politics. Even CofE bishops acknowledge the resurrection is just playing about with bones.

[Chinahand]

You say you believe in miracles - got any evidence for one?

 

Interesting.. you ask me this question as if you care.

Oh come on - IF any particular religion was TRUE then it would be important. I'm not such a fool as to say it wouldn't be - it is the IF that is the issue. You're on the inside, feel confident of your faith - gain comfort even when you doubt. I imagine you feel distain for Buddists, Muslims, Jews - they've got it wrong.

 

I'm a defacto atheist - because there is no evidence that any particular faith is worth a candle I accept none. But I am ultimately agnostic - I don't claim to know any form of truth - that's what your side of the divide claim. I only know what I have evidence for.

 

Christians often go - just accept Christ. For me that's simply saying: If you believe then you will believe - that's about all you've got.

 

But sorry I don't believe and telling me to have faith is just telling me to believe something which I don't. Something I cannot with any intellectual honesty do.

 

I doubt - I am happy in my doubt, it allows me to explore and wonder about the world. You can't do that without threatening an intrinsic part of yourself. And as that intrinic part of yourself involves your immortal soul and a risk of it rejecting/being rejected by your saviour you take ideas that threaten your belief seriously.

 

I don't have those hang ups, and so I find a response of "just have faith" meaningless. Christians seem to think I will be convinced by their telling me to believe in something I don't believe in. Sorry, I won't be and Pascals wager and all that are based on so many presumptions which have zero basis- its pointless.

 

The God of the old testament, exempified in the Prophets of Baal story, gave evidence of his existence to those who asked it. You could question him and he'd answer back. Nowadays the only answer is that you must believe that what you are experiencing is God - even when it is no different than the psychological reaction any human in any other faith might exhibit.

 

That ain't evidence.

[Evil Goblin]

You mean... Do I believe in a God of Miracles? Emphatically yes!

Not really no. The issue is God going out and proving his existence to believer and non believer alike by way of such an emphatic event as the burning of the bulls of Baal. God has now withdrawn and is only visible in half murmurings and effects no more measureable than homeopathy.

 

You say you believe in miracles - got any evidence for one?

 

Elijah's God was made of sterner stuff than the spirit who comes to today's faith healers and mystics. What miracles occur today with anything like the impact of the Bulls of Baal? Elijah God rained fire down from the sky in an explicit display to show his existence for Elijah's critiques. That wasn't messing about!

Matthew 4.7!!

[Amadeus]

You mean... Do I believe in a God of Miracles? Emphatically yes!

Not really no. The issue is God going out and proving his existence to believer and non believer alike by way of such an emphatic event as the burning of the bulls of Baal. God has now withdrawn and is only visible in half murmurings and effects no more measureable than homeopathy.

 

You say you believe in miracles - got any evidence for one?

 

Elijah's God was made of sterner stuff than the spirit who comes to today's faith healers and mystics. What miracles occur today with anything like the impact of the Bulls of Baal? Elijah God rained fire down from the sky in an explicit display to show his existence for Elijah's critiques. That wasn't messing about!

Matthew 4.7!!

 

Ye who bringeth scriptures of the Lord to my door, be told: Ye can feck right off.

Amadeus 1.1

[Chinahand]

Matthew 4.7!!

Why do Gideon (multiple times), Elijah, Isaiah etc get free passes to ignore this commandement?

 

Seriously? Why?

[Terse]

'No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish....'

From David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding

 

(The arts are so much more succinct than the sciences )

[VinnieK]

The arts are so much more succinct than the sciences

 

Of course they are. After all, why waste words when you have so little to say and when so few will listen to you in any case?

[pongo]

I'm a defacto atheist - because there is no evidence that any particular faith is worth a candle I accept none. But I am ultimately agnostic - I don't claim to know any form of truth - that's what your side of the divide claim. I only know what I have evidence for.

 

There is an equal but opposite way to reach almost the same conclusion. Which is via the study of theology and the theologies.

 

The study of theology, side by side with the study of ancient history and the early languages almost invariably leads people to a position at which they come to see all religions as a combination of half remembered oral history, legend and metaphor. Anybody who even slightly understands the evolutions of the texts cannot but conclude that they have been translated, amended, mis translated, edited, polticized etc The various broadly biblical texts are like some wiki which just about everyone has had a go at for their own reasons.

 

Therefore it is not simply that there is no evidence for the existence of gods. That is a side issue. The bigger issue is that any study of the religions invariably shows them to represent the evolution of thinking and legend and language. And, to a degree even, technology (in so much as the evolution of even the written word has shaped them).

 

It is therefore no surprise that there are very few evangelical or word-of-God theologians. The rise of the babblers and the fundamentalists has mirrored an anti intellectualism within religion. It is equally no surprise that modern atheism (also Marxism for that matter) essentially evolved out of Christianity (the evolution of Christianity being essentially about having fewer and fewer gods and the inevitable end point being a no gods religion).

[jimbms]

I often wonder should religious book be put on shelves under the fantasy or fiction section?

[VinnieK]

It is equally no surprise that modern atheism (also Marxism for that matter) essentially evolved out of Christianity (the evolution of Christianity being essentially about having fewer and fewer gods and the inevitable end point being a no gods religion).

 

This really is a very good point, and one that I believe is much underappreciated. Quite a few strands of modern atheism, and more obviously Marxism, appear to me to share all the characteristics of Christianity, especially in its histrionics, it's view of humanity as having been corrupted under the influence of false truths and its belief in itself as the one true path to enlightenment and a better world. The more fundamental forms of modern atheism in particular are less a break with religion and religious thinking, and more a predictable continuation of its major themes, objectives, and sympathy for the "End of History" ideal.

[Chinahand]

I think Pongo's comment about atheism growing out of Christianity is an extremely Eurocentric view point. The philosophies of the east are just as rich territory for the development of secular ethics. The point where we do agree is the altering of the interpretation of the religions with social and historical context. Slavery, torture, inquisitions, colonizing crusades - all intensely Christian behaviours at some point in time - gladly no longer.

[pongo]

The most important point I was making is that viewed from a theological perspective the gods and the spirits become metaphors for evolving ideas.

 

Very few believers take a theological perspective or see their beliefs in terms of the evolution of ideas and languages in general.

 

As Chinahand has pointed out - even within the evolution of Christianity, the god character changes. Like Dr Who, it's almost as if the writers and the actors change along the way.

[gazza]

So what would you call a miracle of god.

 

all the deaths from famine floods etc.

 

some god you have

 

 

wow... that's the second time in this thread that you have asked me a question.. and then immediately assumed to know my answer.

 

This scripture sums it up quite nicely:

 

"Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his word the heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought?

 

And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles. And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he change not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles."

 

and again:

"And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, … working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith."

 

so after you finished quoteing a load of old lies and rabblings of man that wanted to control ppl,

i ask again what So what would you call a miracle of god.

[jimbms]