Using Biofuel In Cars 'may Accelerate Loss Of Rainforest'

[gazza]

I've always said these points need to converge; reduction in consumption, increased efficiency, increased use of renewable energy.

 

I dont think we will ever reduce consumption on a world demand, i just dont think its possable

[jimbms]

My calculations did include new efficiencies, but I am not interested in partial use I am aiming for reduced fuel use and a viable full alternative, as I said elsewhere do not think for one minute that when, and it will happen, that fuels become short, that the UK will still allow us to obtain fuels, ie gas and petrol etc, from them if they need it more, so we should be looking for ways to self suffiency, to do this we need to be looking at biofuel, wind and tidal power etc, and yes there will come a time when private fuel will have to be rationed and public transport becomes the norm for many, but we are in a unique position that we will be able to become self sufficiant within a short time with new developments if we do it right, things are happening now to assist this. As for the question of crops for food and fuel I have to disagree, you obtain a far better yield from growing pod algae and Miscanthus for fuel and food crops sepperate but you can add the waste from food crops, sewage and houshold food waste to the above in the anaerobic digesters. As for making sense, it did to me but yes you did get the basis of it.

[gazza]

Thing is jim at the moment in the island a anaerobic digesters is just not worth doing.

the costs out way the savings a long way

[Slim]

Gazza, we've increased energy efficiency massively over the last 100 years. Why would that trend not continue, particularly as supplies run lower and prices rise?

 

 

My calculations did include new efficiencies, but I am not interested in partial use I am aiming for reduced fuel use and a viable full alternative, as I said elsewhere do not think for one minute that when, and it will happen, that fuels become short, that the UK will still allow us to obtain fuels, ie gas and petrol etc, from them if they need it more, so we should be looking for ways to self suffiency, to do this we need to be looking at biofuel, wind and tidal power etc, and yes there will come a time when private fuel will have to be rationed and public transport becomes the norm for many, but we are in a unique position that we will be able to become self sufficiant within a short time with new developments if we do it right, things are happening now to assist this. As for the question of crops for food and fuel I have to disagree, you obtain a far better yield from growing pod algae and Miscanthus for fuel and food crops sepperate but you can add the waste from food crops, sewage and houshold food waste to the above in the anaerobic digesters. As for making sense, it did to me but yes you did get the basis of it.

 

Not interested in partial use? Isn't that a little short sighted? You're saying the solution is all or nothing?

 

Of course you get a better yield of an energy crop if you only grow that, but you don't get a better yield of food. The discussion you barged into was about food vs fuel crops.

 

As for your fixation on certain techs, this is a fast moving area with few commercial successes as yet. Some interesting developments around, eg:

 

http://www.syntecbiofuel.com/butanol.php

 

I wouldn't overlook what's coming out of increased commercial interest in this sector.

[jimbms]

Thing is jim at the moment in the island a anaerobic digesters is just not worth doing.

the costs out way the savings a long way

Not sure where you get the figures from but at the moment the new digesters have a payback under 5yrs so let us assume we use food waste and high yield fuel crops with an install cost of say £1million, then how can you say that a yearly saving of £200k+ after running costs is not viable, but in saying that even if the savings are very little the more important fact is we would be using a sustainable energy and fuel source and not relient on other countries, which in the future will become very important, we have wars now over oil whats it going to be like when it becomes even scarcer and face facts with the high tariffs MEA and Manx gas charge these methods become even more viable here.

[gazza]

Gazza, we've increased energy efficiency massively over the last 100 years. Why would that trend not continue, particularly as supplies run lower and prices rise?

 

yes thats true slim.

but the use of fuel has gone up in the last 100 years,

so really the efficiency has done nowt for global demand.

[jimbms]

Sorry Slim didn't make myself clear, yes partial is good but in doing so we should ultimately aim for total, what I meant was look to using methods which can be increased easily rather that simple small scale units that cannot be increased. Yep butanol is good, not sure on what crops we could grow here but if you look at the algae option that can produce high yields of ethanol, but what is interesting is if they manage to develop the methods to produce it from organic waste etc. As for new commercial stuff I think we shall be hearing a lot about these industries here in the near future,due to the Clean Tec policy.

[Slim]

Gazza, think about what the consumption would be like without the increases in efficiency.

 

Sorry Slim didn't make myself clear, yes partial is good but in doing so we should ultimately aim for total, what I meant was look to using methods which can be increased easily rather that simple small scale units that cannot be increased. Yep butanol is good, not sure on what crops we could grow here but if you look at the algae option that can produce high yields of ethanol, but what is interesting is if they manage to develop the methods to produce it from organic waste etc. As for new commercial stuff I think we shall be hearing a lot about these industries here in the near future,due to the Clean Tec policy.

 

 

The reported benefits of bio butanol using these new methods is that it can be made out of virtually anything, from pine wood to wheat stalks. Certainly more available land for that kind of crop than rapeseed or other fuel crop I'd have thought.

[gazza]

Gazza, think about what the consumption would be like without the increases in efficiency.

 

Sorry Slim didn't make myself clear, yes partial is good but in doing so we should ultimately aim for total, what I meant was look to using methods which can be increased easily rather that simple small scale units that cannot be increased. Yep butanol is good, not sure on what crops we could grow here but if you look at the algae option that can produce high yields of ethanol, but what is interesting is if they manage to develop the methods to produce it from organic waste etc. As for new commercial stuff I think we shall be hearing a lot about these industries here in the near future,due to the Clean Tec policy.

 

 

The reported benefits of bio butanol using these new methods is that it can be made out of virtually anything, from pine wood to wheat stalks. Certainly more available land for that kind of crop than rapeseed or other fuel crop I'd have thought.

 

true slim, prob would be a lot higher.

 

unless some company or the gov spent tens of millions on a plant in the island then its a long way away, but who knows whats in store

[jimbms]

I think before we even think of using all these biofuels we need to relook at our power production methods, at present we use the ancient method of centralised power production of electricity and localised i.e. houshold methods of heating, this has an overall efficiency of around 49%, now if instead we made smaller more localised energy generation centres lets say for example one in Governors Hill estate, then we could also use the heat generated which is usualy 50% more than the electricity, for local district heating, this would then bring the overall efficiency up to around 75-80%, so as you see by moving away from a big gas turbine that wastes most of the heat energy produced we could now by using the same amount of fuel used to produce electricity also heat the homes it supplies which would mean we need less biofuel to produce the same amount of energy. You may then ask what about the small outlying areas? Quite simple really, a micro CHP costs around £3000, run this on methane produced from biofuel and these individual homes would have more than enough heat and power, in some cases one machine could heat and power 2 houses. Now if we look at this energy we waste we can then calculate the massive capital amount that is being wasted and see that as Gazza says a few million spent to make these plants and more localised energy sites would yield massive benifits for the future.

[jimbms]

Ok just to add to last here is a little calculation I have done to show what we could save on a fairly modest estate.

 

Assuming the cost of wholesale natural gas per kWh: 3.45 (pence/kWh)

 

Details using seperate generation

 

Total Site Operating Hours: 8712 hrs per year (24hrs)

Total Site Energy Cost: £4,000,000

Average Electricity Demand: 1.435 (mW)

Average Heat Demand: 1.435 (mW)

Average Electricity Cost per unit: 12 (pence)

Average Heat Cost per unit: 5.6 (pence)

Heat to Power Ratio: 1:1

 

Combined Heat & Power generation estimate

 

Approx required CHP Size (mW) 1.5 (mW)

 

CHP Scheme Efficiency and Costs

 

TOTAL Capital Cost £970,000

TOTAL Scheme Running Costs £990,508

TOTAL Savings £1,209,492

 

ESTIMATED PROJECT PAYBACK 6 - 12 Months

 

So as we see localised power can be benificial if the heat is sold alongside the power produced and the payback time is well within a required level especially when you consider we could sell that over sized heap of junk of a jet engine we have at Pulrose & finance a good number of these units.

 

Edited to add I have not considered the cost of running the required pipes to houses which could add a year to the payback time, but this still makes it very viable.

[gazza]

does that include the fuel cost as well.

 

Thing is jim to get the plant in a good postion you would prob have to pay 5 million for the site alone,

and the gov of adding 100% to any building cost.

[jimbms]

does that include the fuel cost as well.

 

Thing is jim to get the plant in a good postion you would prob have to pay 5 million for the site alone,

and the gov of adding 100% to any building cost.

The site required for this would be very small and if the land is govt property even better, if it is land not zoned for housing the compulsary purchase means only arable prices need to be paid, lets look at the fact a private company could set this up and sell the electricity and heat it would still work out better for us, as for cost, to me if the payback is even as long as 4yrs it is still very viable, we should not be looking reasons we cannot do this, instead we should be smashing the barriers down preventing us doing it and going ahead, who cares if the MEA goes bust because some private company can sell energy combined and cheaper, at least if they do go bust the loan to Barclays would be wiped out.

 

Edited to add, yes Gazza the running costs include fuel based on using natural gas at full price, but consider that if you buy your CHP unit from manx gas, which are infact quite cheap compared to the current market, then you get gas at a greatly reduced price, by using a gas CHP it can easy be converted to run on methane produced from biofuels when it becomes more viable.

[gazza]

So really the only company that could sey this up to make it profitable would be the MEA, unless things changed and other companys were allowed to supply to home owners etc

[jimbms]

So really the only company that could sey this up to make it profitable would be the MEA, unless things changed and other companys were allowed to supply to home owners etc

See again you are looking at the obsticles, it matters not who does it, the point is it is making a better use of energy generation than we use at the moment, even if it cost the user the same who cares? it still means we would be using less fuel to generate our energy and nearer thwe point where we could stop being relient on importation of fuels to produce this, the only thing stopping progress here is we are living on an Island full of Ludites, with the biggest ones being in power and key positions.