Using Biofuel In Cars 'may Accelerate Loss Of Rainforest'

[gazza]

So really the only company that could sey this up to make it profitable would be the MEA, unless things changed and other companys were allowed to supply to home owners etc

See again you are looking at the obsticles, it matters not who does it, the point is it is making a better use of energy generation than we use at the moment, even if it cost the user the same who cares? it still means we would be using less fuel to generate our energy and nearer thwe point where we could stop being relient on importation of fuels to produce this, the only thing stopping progress here is we are living on an Island full of Ludites, with the biggest ones being in power and key positions.

 

 

Gazza, it means that PK has to go away and draft the bill, after which time, they'll vote again.

 

but you have to look at the obsticles in any thing.

Its all well and dandy saying this and that but without seeing the hurdles to over come then something will never happin.

 

quiastion begs to ask, if like you have said the figures are true why the MEA have not set something up like it allready, even if it was just one to see how it would work.

 

No private company or person will ever set one up because the payback is northing because of the MEA price. So without a leading company to set one up i really cant see the MEA doing one in the next 5-10 years.

one of the - points of not being in the EU with the grants they get for bio powers.

 

i never did find an answer out from the ppl that should know.

do the isle of man cash in carbon credits, or the nearest answer i got to was that the isle of man is part of the uk when it comes to carbon credits, if so how much are these credits worth at the moment.

Not a lot i would think as there is not much clean elec getting made,

But in years to come will the uk be using our carbon credits to trade with. and if so how much is the island losing because of it.

[jimbms]

Its all well and dandy saying this and that but without seeing the hurdles to over come then something will never happin.

 

quiastion begs to ask, if like you have said the figures are true why the MEA have not set something up like it allready, even if it was just one to see how it would work.

 

No private company or person will ever set one up because the payback is northing because of the MEA price. So without a leading company to set one up i really cant see the MEA doing one in the next 5-10 years.

How wrong you are, there are ones running Nobles Hospital, The Hospice, Ballakermeen School, The Hilton and I believe the Sefton may also have one, all have paid back within 12 to 18 months, all are running very efficiently, all have made considerable savings and the MEA have had no say in any of them, in fact they have taken the right hump with it and try to block people putting power back into the grid as it produces a surplus, it is Manx Gas who are promoting this and it is pissing the MEA right off because the have lost all revenue from these site for supplying power and Manx Gas are making a decent profit even with selling the gas at a reduced price and there are more sites due to be using this very soon Manx Gas order books are full with regards to installing CHP, this I know as I needed to know the lead time on some units. There is nothing stopping you as an individual going out and buying a domestic micro CHP unit for your own house, in fact it would produce more heat than you require and you could sell some to next door. So as you see your statement of no private company would do this is wrong and the MEA have no say, the reason they wont do it is because they would lose out in revenue.

[gazza]

Its all well and dandy saying this and that but without seeing the hurdles to over come then something will never happin.

 

quiastion begs to ask, if like you have said the figures are true why the MEA have not set something up like it allready, even if it was just one to see how it would work.

 

No private company or person will ever set one up because the payback is northing because of the MEA price. So without a leading company to set one up i really cant see the MEA doing one in the next 5-10 years.

How wrong you are, there are ones running Nobles Hospital, The Hospice, Ballakermeen School, The Hilton and I believe the Sefton may also have one, all have paid back within 12 to 18 months, all are running very efficiently, all have made considerable savings and the MEA have had no say in any of them, in fact they have taken the right hump with it and try to block people putting power back into the grid as it produces a surplus, it is Manx Gas who are promoting this and it is pissing the MEA right off because the have lost all revenue from these site for supplying power and Manx Gas are making a decent profit even with selling the gas at a reduced price and there are more sites due to be using this very soon Manx Gas order books are full with regards to installing CHP, this I know as I needed to know the lead time on some units. There is nothing stopping you as an individual going out and buying a domestic micro CHP unit for your own house, in fact it would produce more heat than you require and you could sell some to next door. So as you see your statement of no private company would do this is wrong and the MEA have no say, the reason they wont do it is because they would lose out in revenue.

 

I stand corrected,

[Slim]

The reported benefits of bio butanol using these new methods is that it can be made out of virtually anything, from pine wood to wheat stalks. Certainly more available land for that kind of crop than rapeseed or other fuel crop I'd have thought.

 

More news today on the advancement of bio-fuels using inedible waste products rather than a dedicated energy crop:

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2010/02/16/16climatewire-economics-improve-for-first-commercial-cellu-93478.html

 

"That capacity, though nearer than ever, has long been a future prospect. Next year, the nation's first commercial-sized plants are expected to open their doors. Among the climate benefits experts see are that the use of corn stover and other waste products rather than corn will cut the need for fertilizer, plowing and other greenhouse gas-producing steps currently used to make ethanol."

[jimbms]

I also read that article with interest but I regard Algae as the way ahead for biofuels, compared to any other organic biofuel matter the output from this is tremendous, on average 1,000 times greater, so much so most of the major oil companies are now putting their cash into it as the crude from algae can easily be refined into a product the same as virtualy all our hydrocarbon fuels, the use in plastic has yet to be perfected, the main advantage of algae is that it does not require land as it can be done in sea water or as one researcher is doing underground with glass plates in deep shafts with sunlight being fed from solar collectors, as an added bonus it can turn salt water into fresh and has a very substantial conversion of co2 in the process, infact at one test bed they found although a small plant it could take take all the co2 from a nearby power plant and more. In addition there is no unused waste product from this and it can be used to produce ethanol at the same time

[Slim]

I also read that article with interest but I regard Algae as the way ahead for biofuels, compared to any other organic biofuel matter the output from this is tremendous, on average 1,000 times greater, so much so most of the major oil companies are now putting their cash into it as the crude from algae can easily be refined into a product the same as virtualy all our hydrocarbon fuels, the use in plastic has yet to be perfected, the main advantage of algae is that it does not require land as it can be done in sea water or as one researcher is doing underground with glass plates in deep shafts with sunlight being fed from solar collectors, as an added bonus it can turn salt water into fresh and has a very substantial conversion of co2 in the process, infact at one test bed they found although a small plant it could take take all the co2 from a nearby power plant and more. In addition there is no unused waste product from this and it can be used to produce ethanol at the same time

 

Bit early to make that call. They're both promising, but algae is still a long way off a commercial reality and there's still doubts about it's viability. You make it sound quite simple, but the reality is that there's a trade off in how much energy you put into the process vs what you get out. If you can cut that deficit by using waste products, then you're a lot better off. There are examples of algae biofules using waste water, which is fine if you have a source, but that's a very big change for many existing waste management systems.

 

There's no need to back one horse here either. If ethanol from food plant waste becomes cost effective, it would be logical be that the energy requirements for food production switches to that. If Algae fits better as an interim solution for replacing diesel, then transport could begin using it.

[jimbms]

I also read that article with interest but I regard Algae as the way ahead for biofuels, compared to any other organic biofuel matter the output from this is tremendous, on average 1,000 times greater, so much so most of the major oil companies are now putting their cash into it as the crude from algae can easily be refined into a product the same as virtualy all our hydrocarbon fuels, the use in plastic has yet to be perfected, the main advantage of algae is that it does not require land as it can be done in sea water or as one researcher is doing underground with glass plates in deep shafts with sunlight being fed from solar collectors, as an added bonus it can turn salt water into fresh and has a very substantial conversion of co2 in the process, infact at one test bed they found although a small plant it could take take all the co2 from a nearby power plant and more. In addition there is no unused waste product from this and it can be used to produce ethanol at the same time

 

Bit early to make that call. They're both promising, but algae is still a long way off a commercial reality and there's still doubts about it's viability. You make it sound quite simple, but the reality is that there's a trade off in how much energy you put into the process vs what you get out. If you can cut that deficit by using waste products, then you're a lot better off. There are examples of algae biofules using waste water, which is fine if you have a source, but that's a very big change for many existing waste management systems.

 

There's no need to back one horse here either. If ethanol from food plant waste becomes cost effective, it would be logical be that the energy requirements for food production switches to that. If Algae fits better as an interim solution for replacing diesel, then transport could begin using it.

Agreed, but just to add it seems Royal Dutch (Shell to you and me), Exxon abd BP are already building each their own differt versions of algae farms after successful trials, we should see production within 4yrs, you never know you may also hear more on these algae farms research units here at some time in the future.

[Slim]

Agreed, but just to add it seems Royal Dutch (Shell to you and me), Exxon abd BP are already building each their own differt versions of algae farms after successful trials, we should see production within 4yrs, you never know you may also hear more on these algae farms research units here at some time in the future.

 

No, I think you're leaping ahead a bit. Exxon appears to be the biggest investor into this tech, and they're still very much at the research stage:

 

http://www.heatingoil.com/blog/exxon-biofuels-research-underway-with-focus-on-algae121/

 

ExxonMobil and its partner, Synthetic Genomics, are jumping in (to the brackish or salty water amenable to algae growth) with both feet. Emil Jacobs, the vice president of research and development for ExxonMobil, told the National that “We are at full speed right now. The good news is that we’re no longer writing agreements. We’re doing real work.”

 

He went on to say, “I think that we need a very aggressive program and to advance this as fast as we can.” Jacobs predicted that commercial-scale “biomanufacturing” of biofuel from could begin in 8 to 10 years.

 

 

[easylife]

So really the only company that could sey this up to make it profitable would be the MEA, unless things changed and other companys were allowed to supply to home owners etc

See again you are looking at the obsticles, it matters not who does it, the point is it is making a better use of energy generation than we use at the moment, even if it cost the user the same who cares? it still means we would be using less fuel to generate our energy and nearer thwe point where we could stop being relient on importation of fuels to produce this, the only thing stopping progress here is we are living on an Island full of Ludites, with the biggest ones being in power and key positions.

 

 

Gazza, it means that PK has to go away and draft the bill, after which time, they'll vote again.

 

but you have to look at the obsticles in any thing.

Its all well and dandy saying this and that but without seeing the hurdles to over come then something will never happin.

 

quiastion begs to ask, if like you have said the figures are true why the MEA have not set something up like it allready, even if it was just one to see how it would work.

 

No private company or person will ever set one up because the payback is northing because of the MEA price. So without a leading company to set one up i really cant see the MEA doing one in the next 5-10 years.

one of the - points of not being in the EU with the grants they get for bio powers.

 

i never did find an answer out from the ppl that should know.

do the isle of man cash in carbon credits, or the nearest answer i got to was that the isle of man is part of the uk when it comes to carbon credits, if so how much are these credits worth at the moment.

Not a lot i would think as there is not much clean elec getting made,

But in years to come will the uk be using our carbon credits to trade with. and if so how much is the island losing because of it.

Electric CVs "worthless" after warranty expires

Thursday, 18 February 2010

Used car guide Cap has thrown a spanner in the electrical works, claiming it is "currently impossible" to forecast the residual values of electric cars.

 

It said battery replacement costs threaten to render commercial electric vehicles "worthless" after warranties expire.

 

Contract hire and leasing operators needed more information before they could assess the risks involved in putting electric cars on their books.

 

"One of the problems of this sector at the moment is the diversity of approaches being taken by manufacturers," said Mike Hind, CAP communications manager.

 

Clear information

 

"Our customers are asking for clear information to enable them to plan their future vehicle mix strategies," it said.

 

Cap said more information was needed on

 

• battery finance options

• battery life

• anticipated replacement costs

• charging systems

• overall running costs.

 

"This means we are unable to realistically offer a view on future residual values and only when those questions are answered will we be able to do so.

 

£10,000 batteries

 

"For example, with some battery replacement costs mooted to approach the £10,000 mark it currently seems unlikely that a high mileage commercial vehicle in particular approaching the end of its warranty period will have any residual value at all.

 

"We are speaking to all manufacturers involved so we can definitively address these questions as soon as possible. This is necessary to enable potential owners, operators and funders to understand their future risk position and where all-electric vehicles potentially fit into their future operations."

 

CAP is undertaking a review of the sector.CAP BEING THE BOOK ALL DEALERS WOULD USE IN PUTTING A VALUE ON A CAR, MOTORBIKE OR VAN.

[jimbms]

Since when did battery cars count as biofuel cars? Most of this thread has been about biofuels and cogeneration.

[bellyup]

well not stupid if it cost say 1000gallon of fossil fuels to produce 10000gallons fo bio fuel, then its not stupid is it.

because its made more than it put in.

 

That's true. But even better to have sustainable alternatives, such as biofuels made from the waste products of food crops.

Problem is Slim old bean is that to make this Island self sufficient in biofuel and biofuel produced power and gas after deducting the amount gained from energy to waste, anaerobic digestion of animal and human sewage/waste and food waste, that unless we harnessed a good amount of wind and tidal power and said up your to the eco freaks who don't like the looks of them, we would need over 50% of our land to grow even the highest bio returnable crop to enable this according to my most recent calculations where I included the use of Miscanthus (Elephant Grass) in this, now if we could start to use algae to offer multiple end products: ethanol via fermentation, biodiesel via oil extraction and transesterification; biomethane via anaerobic digestion; or electricity from a direct alcohol fuel cell, then we could include bays on our coast line to grow this and it would be much more viable due to the high yield of algae, but if we instead used land to grow pond based algae then we find grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre in a very short time with a yield per acre over 100 times that of conventional bio crops, we also have the added fact that it converts so much co2 to o2 that if we grew enough to provide one third of our needs we would be in minus figure in our co2 emissions within a few weeks and if we sign to the Kyoto agreement we could also make a substantial amount from trading carbon credits as we could make a massive surplus in a short time. Now add to this that we could get farmers to produce this and pay them for the crops it would still be cheaper than conventional fuels and also create employment.

Oops ok that’s me rabbiting on too much I will leave it at that, but I could go on for ages on the various biofuels and their uses etc.

 

Then there's hot air easily produced by waffling windbags.

[jimbms]

Then there's hot air easily produced by waffling windbags.

Would be a lot easier burning the money of people who make greedy stupid investments.

[easylife]

Since when did battery cars count as biofuel cars? Most of this thread has been about biofuels and cogeneration.

Biofuel comes under the heading "Alternative Fuel"

Biofuels all can be used to generate energy in some form, Be it heat, electricity or motion (such as for powering a car )

By 2013 all diesels sold in the UK will contain 5% Biodiesel.

[bellyup]

Then there's hot air easily produced by waffling windbags.

Would be a lot easier burning the money of people who make greedy stupid investments.

 

I trust you are not talking about people who put their money in the IOM?

Would you call that a greedy stupid investment?

 

Would you say this on TV ?

 

Back to the topic methane can be considered plenty is produced by people speaking out of their rear ends.

[jimbms]

Then there's hot air easily produced by waffling windbags.

Would be a lot easier burning the money of people who make greedy stupid investments.

 

I trust you are not talking about people who put their money in the IOM?

Would you call that a greedy stupid investment?

 

Would you say this on TV ?

 

Back to the topic methane can be considered plenty is produced by people speaking out of their rear ends.

1. No I am refering to KSF in general.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. Good idea, let's get all the KSF investors together.