I Know It's Wrong But...

[Right-Wing]

Except for the fact that they earnt it?

But they haven't earned it. If I write a book that sell millions of copies and receive millions in return I wouldn't think I have earned that money. People may like the book and sales generate the money, but I haven't worked for that much money.

 

What planet are you on?

 

The harder your job is to do, i.e. the less people are capable of doing it, the more money the job demands. Supply and demand. Did you ever hear of that concept?

 

If someone can do a job after a few days of training, then the money won't be great, because you could train a lot of different people to do it, so you don't need to pay lots.

 

If the job, say a doctor, involves years of study and bucket loads of qualification, then you can't just drag someone off the street and give them a bit of training, therefore you have to pay the people who can do the job, lots of money to reward the years of training.

 

If someone has written a book and sold millions of copies, then yes god damn it, they have earned the money. If it were that easy to do, then why aren't you a multi millionaire best selling author? The answer is because it isn't that easy to do, and those that do achieve, deserve the spoils.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I wonder if you are mixing up talent and effort here. Of course, someone who writes a book has put effort into it, but not enough to result in them bagging billions and think it is well deserved. Same thing with the footballer. He may not work harder or much harder than quite a number of other people in society who do a lot of physical work, he just has his talent.

 

But in terms of the effort put into doing work, current salaries and compensations are not in that proportionate at all. It is as Alias mentions, it often follows the value of the goods or services, not in terms of their benefits to society but simply by how much demand there is for them.

 

As for your doctor analogy, you're talking about a different thing here.

[Chinahand]

Ldv - how are you going to remove that incentive for people to sell their talents for as much as they can get for them. You say they do not deserve what other people offer them - a profoundly illiberal stance - and I presume you would want to intervene to stop them doing so. How? Don't you see your system is profoundly damaging for innovation.

 

Again I find it plain wierd that you think it isn't a unique talent to be able to write a book which millions of people want to read.

 

Anyone can put the effort in to write 300 pages of A4 - whether it is a worthwhile effort entirely depends upon the talent of the author.

 

You seem to say that a person who puts lots and lots of back breaking effort digging a lot of holes and filling them in again should be rewarded as much as someone who does something useful in their labours - it is the usefulness of the labour which marks out whether it is well rewarded or not - are you really going to say that is unfair?

[Right-Wing]

As for your doctor analogy, you're talking about a different thing here.

 

Or is it because it doesn't suit your point of view?

 

Supply and demand. Look it up, it could explain a lot to you. It's not all about how much effort you put into something, otherwise as Chinahand says, we could all just paid for digging holes and filling them in again.

 

If it worked like that then we could all save ourselves a lot of time. No need to study and get qualifications, we can all just wait to get paid to dig holes and fill them in. I can't believe I've been so blind to this all of my life.

 

BTW, good luck next time you go to the dentist, or the hospital and you get operated on by someone who hasn't bothered to study hard and get any qualifications and learn any skills. Of course you'd probably be quite happy to see them picking up a pick axe to perform the operation with? After all you don't think people should be rewarded for studying and learning skills, we could all just get paid the same regardless of our skills that we have acquired. Oh yes, and if you could tell me when you are next flying off the Island, I'd like to avoid the flight where you are going to be flown by a pilot who hasn't studied, taken exams, proved their ability to do something that other people can't do, and been rewarded for learning those skills.

 

And as for your footballer, whilst I wince when I hear about how much they get paid, it's supply and demand. Whilst there is someone willing to pay that sort of money for the person who is best at kicking a ball, then there will be always be people prepared to dedicate their life to being the best at it. Without that incentive you have nothing. No point in getting out of bed in the morning.

[jimbms]

Sometimes I wonder LDV if all this animosity towards people who have worked hard to attain good qualifications and therefore demand a higher salary is because you couldn't be arsed trying at university and ended up with a 2:2 in some useless degree and no one wants to employ you in anything other than menial tasks, a bit of the green eyed monster me thinks.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

As for your doctor analogy, you're talking about a different thing here.

 

Or is it because it doesn't suit your point of view?

 

Supply and demand. Look it up, it could explain a lot to you. It's not all about how much effort you put into something, otherwise as Chinahand says, we could all just paid for digging holes and filling them in again.

 

If it worked like that then we could all save ourselves a lot of time. No need to study and get qualifications, we can all just wait to get paid to dig holes and fill them in. I can't believe I've been so blind to this all of my life.

 

BTW, good luck next time you go to the dentist, or the hospital and you get operated on by someone who hasn't bothered to study hard and get any qualifications and learn any skills. Of course you'd probably be quite happy to see them picking up a pick axe to perform the operation with? After all you don't think people should be rewarded for studying and learning skills, we could all just get paid the same regardless of our skills that we have acquired. Oh yes, and if you could tell me when you are next flying off the Island, I'd like to avoid the flight where you are going to be flown by a pilot who hasn't studied, taken exams, proved their ability to do something that other people can't do, and been rewarded for learning those skills.

 

And as for your footballer, whilst I wince when I hear about how much they get paid, it's supply and demand. Whilst there is someone willing to pay that sort of money for the person who is best at kicking a ball, then there will be always be people prepared to dedicate their life to being the best at it. Without that incentive you have nothing. No point in getting out of bed in the morning.

I've already said that it is dependent on supply and demand.

 

I dismissed your meandering to doctors and their working hard but you are talking about something quite different - where effort has been put in. However, to say the only incentive to work is money is not entirely true though very largely true. And it does not mean that there cannot be a society or system where the incentive is not money, but satisfaction from undertaking work directly to benefit society as a whole.

[Chinahand]

But LDV care to explain how you will set up a society where money is not an incentive and how to stop people recidivizing back to using money when their individual desires aren't met.

 

Also such a society will always perform less well than a society based on supply and demand as the incentives in a cash based society are so much more direct and explicit.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Sometimes I wonder LDV if all this animosity towards people who have worked hard to attain good qualifications and therefore demand a higher salery is beacause you couldn't be arsed trying at univertity and ended up with a 2:2 in some useless degree and no one wants to employ you in anything other than menial tasks, a bit of the green eyed monster me thinks.

You're yet again building up the straw man. Is this on purpose? Where is this supposed animosity to those who have good qualifications?

[jimbms]

Well you do seem to hate anyone who works hard and makes a success of their lives and owns any property

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But LDV care to explain how you will set up a society where money is not an incentive and how to stop people recidivizing back to using money when their individual desires aren't met.

 

Also such a society will always perform less well than a society based on supply and demand as the incentives in a cash based society are so much more direct and explicit.

It is a difficult one because it is so far removed from the way in which society functions today. But my thinking would be move to a society where the desire to work is one where people are able to do jobs that they wish to do for the simply reward of recognition of their role of production or service provision in society - that isn't based upon the making of profit for their employer, because that's why their jobs exists. Given the wealth in society at present and taking into account the probable lesser efficiencies in economic production in a money-less society I would think there would be enough wealth to not have people work 9-5. No need for those long hours. When you have more free time for social pursuits any costs of working would be mitigated. But then I am not so sure there would be such costs when people are doing what they enjoy and when they have control over their work in a democratic environment.

 

Recidivism, however, I think may be a serious problem. And a society not based on a supply and demand market system that exists today would be less efficient - to what extent I am not sure as I do not know exactly what form a future society will take - a gift economy might be worth a shot. However, I see more value in the benefits that could accrue from such a system, as opposed to the current one.

[Freggyragh]

No doubt if you were able to do the job you would wish to do, you'd be commandant of a political re-education camp.

[jimbms]

No doubt if you were able to do the job you would wish to do, you'd be commandant of a political re-education camp.

I doubt that because it would entail him being in charge which he is against, also he would have to establish rules, wear a uniform, force people to conform, limit their free speech and icarcerate them, all of which he opposes.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Yeah, exactly what Jimbms said.