Blair Peach Killed By Police

[mæŋksmən]

all youve done is copy your post from another forum virtually word for word from the !!war without end forum!! you have just copied and pasted a poster called cowboys post and link in your 7.52 post, you didnt even check whether he actually was quoting from that document did you, and you should of either checked the document or gone further down the thread where cowboy was posting as it transpires he was doctoring the quotes, the very quotes youve copied and pasted im affraid.

 

Its not what is said in the report thats as interesting as what the witnesses said later, after they were no longer under threat of court marshal, they were told you only answer direct questions, you dont elaborate and you dont volunteer information.

It was one of 2 official whitewashes, this one conviened only 2 days after the attack for the first time and in london.

 

So lets examine what the witnesses that you put so much faith in have to say shall we when not in a closed session enquiry..

 

 

 

Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, President of the Navy Court of Inquiry:

According to Kidd's legal counsel, Captain Ward Boston, USN,

Kidd discussed with him his belief that the attackers were aware

they were attacking an American ship. The Court ruled otherwise

because they were so directed by Washington. (Navy Times,

6/26/2002)

 

Captain Ward Boston, legal counsel to the Navy Court of Inquiry.

"I feel the Israelis knew what they were doing. They knew they

were shooting at a U.S. Navy ship." (Navy Times, 6/26/2002)

 

 

Rear Admiral (then captain) Merlin Staring, Staff Legal Office

for Commander in Chief US Naval Forces Europe and later Chief

Judge Advocate General of the Navy. After reviewing the Court

of Inquiry, he concluded that the evidence did not support the

findings that the attack was an accident and declined to

recommend that his Commander sign and forward it to Washington.

(Statement to Navy Times, 3 June 2002 and elsewhere)

 

 

Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty.

"USS Liberty is the only US Navy ship attacked by a foreign

nation, involving large loss of life...that has never been

accorded a full Congressional hearing."

 

 

 

I will edit in the witnesses later statements, you have above all the top men at the moment, now the crews own unrestricted words.

[Evil Goblin]

Rog - I think you need to recognise that "anti-Israeli" does NOT necessarily mean "anti-Semitic". You can criticise the policies and actions of an Israeli Government without being in the least an anti-semite.

[Rog]

all youve done is copy your post from another forum virtually word for word from the !!war without end forum!! you have just copied and pasted a poster called cowboys post and link in your 7.52 post, you didnt even check whether he actually was quoting from that document did you, and you should of either checked the document or gone further down the thread where cowboy was posting as it transpires he was doctoring the quotes, the very quotes youve copied and pasted im affraid.

 

Its not what is said in the report thats as interesting as what the witnesses said later, after they were no longer under threat of court marshal, they were told you only answer direct questions, you dont elaborate and you dont volunteer information.

It was one of 2 official whitewashes, this one conviened only 2 days after the attack for the first time and in london.

 

So lets examine what the witnesses that you put so much faith in have to say shall we when not in a closed session enquiry..

 

 

 

Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, President of the Navy Court of Inquiry:

According to Kidd's legal counsel, Captain Ward Boston, USN,

Kidd discussed with him his belief that the attackers were aware

they were attacking an American ship. The Court ruled otherwise

because they were so directed by Washington. (Navy Times,

6/26/2002)

 

Captain Ward Boston, legal counsel to the Navy Court of Inquiry.

"I feel the Israelis knew what they were doing. They knew they

were shooting at a U.S. Navy ship." (Navy Times, 6/26/2002)

 

 

Rear Admiral (then captain) Merlin Staring, Staff Legal Office

for Commander in Chief US Naval Forces Europe and later Chief

Judge Advocate General of the Navy. After reviewing the Court

of Inquiry, he concluded that the evidence did not support the

findings that the attack was an accident and declined to

recommend that his Commander sign and forward it to Washington.

(Statement to Navy Times, 3 June 2002 and elsewhere)

 

 

Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty.

"USS Liberty is the only US Navy ship attacked by a foreign

nation, involving large loss of life...that has never been

accorded a full Congressional hearing."

 

 

 

I will edit in the witnesses later statements, you have above all the top men at the moment, now the crews own unrestricted words.

 

Not so.

 

What I have posted is the URL of the minutes of the official US investigation of the attack on The Liberty.

 

The very fact that you don’t even know what you’re reading shows that you don’t know what you’re writing about.

 

 

When you're in a hole the best thing to do is to stop digging, especially when you're digging in a pile of shit as you are doing right now.

[Rog]

Rog - I think you need to recognise that "anti-Israeli" does NOT necessarily mean "anti-Semitic". You can criticise the policies and actions of an Israeli Government without being in the least an anti-semite.

 

I fully agree, however this particular fool has demonstrated his anti-Semitism by style and in addition by certain statements he has made directed at me.

[jimbms]

Rog you are openly anti Muslim, anti negro and often shown to be a bigoted racist so I do think you have a cheek calling someone anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli and even if he has made statements directed at you, so what you do the same, if you can't take it don't give it out you hypocrite

[Rog]

Rog you are openly anti Muslim, anti negro and often shown to be a bigoted racist so I do think you have a cheek calling someone anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli and even if he has made statements directed at you, so what you do the same, if you can't take it don't give it out you hypocrite

You really need to “stop with the shallow thinking”.

 

It may be that your admitted slight learning difficulties make this hard to do, but do at least try to get to a reading and comprehension standard beyond that associated with "Janet and John" books. If you did the following would emerge.

 

Anti-Muslim? No. Anti-Islam. There’s a whole world of difference.

 

Anti-Negro? No. Just deny that a negro is the equal to all other races just as any member of any race is the equal of all other races.

 

Racist? If that means asserting that there are differences between the races, then yes, absolutely.

 

On the other hand if that means discriminating against someone because of their race when the racial differences played no part, then absolutely not.

 

Hypocrite? Certainly not.

[jimbms]

It seems Rog you are also guilty of misconseption i.e. mild dyslexia means that I just have a slight problem with how I spell words but not the ability to learn, in factI always found myself in the top 5% at school etc especialy in science and have a verified IQ well obove average take in strict controlled conditions, therefore your "admitted slight learning difficulties" is a total misconception by yourself.

 

What you need to face sunshine is that although you may have a few minor views that people here may agree with, nobody will actually now be seen to side with what I think most people concieve as your hate filled narrow minded nazi like views, to an extent many on here including myself see it as a sport to taunt and bait you with some having side bets to see how long into a post you get before making certain comments.

[mæŋksmən]

Rog - I think you need to recognise that "anti-Israeli" does NOT necessarily mean "anti-Semitic". You can criticise the policies and actions of an Israeli Government without being in the least an anti-semite.

 

I fully agree, however this particular fool has demonstrated his anti-Semitism by style and in addition by certain statements he has made directed at me.

 

This particular fool rog, isnt actually anti rog/jew/israel, i am anti mossad/jewish extremist, NEWSFLASH ROG there is no world wide conspiracy against the jews, only conspiracies amongst some jews on a worldwide basis.

All the rest rog is just indoctrination to control their nation, THE MANY BY THE FEW, how else do you get conscripts to kill and die so willingly.

Anti-semitism exist mainly in the jewish mind planted there virtually from birth for obvious reasons, you wont see this as your conditioning will not allow you to.

Other JEWISH PEOPLE do see it for what it is rog, some of them famous and vocal, and are considered traitors.

Its also a weapon that is only really effective in america, thats not to under-estimate its effect elsewhere such as europe, but its losing its silencing power of governmental criticism of israel bit by bit.

[mæŋksmən]

Not so.

 

What I have posted is the URL of the minutes of the official US investigation of the attack on The Liberty.

 

The very fact that you don’t even know what you’re reading shows that you don’t know what you’re writing about.

 

 

When you're in a hole the best thing to do is to stop digging, especially when you're digging in a pile of shit as you are doing right now.

 

I am not in a shithole rog.

All the injured made statements, all the crew made written statements, all were ignored a not presented to the enquiry.

The only witnesses from liberty were threatened pre enquiry with court marshall and loss of all entitlements plus jail if they deviated from answering direct questions,

The questions from the panel were never going to blacken israel, read the questions, the main thrust of the whole enquiry was on the communications issue.

 

Did you just ignore the words of the manwho headed the enquiry.

 

Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, President of the Navy Court of Inquiry:

According to Kidd's legal counsel, Captain Ward Boston, USN,

Kidd discussed with him his belief that the attackers were aware

they were attacking an American ship. The Court ruled otherwise

because they were so directed by Washington. (Navy Times,

6/26/2002)

 

The enquiry was tightly controlled by washington the same as with 911 and the very strict narrowtive bush laidout with that and 7/7 with blair.

 

Ps rog, try and keep the anti semitism / anti jew / anti israel / anti rog out of any further MOSSED/JEWISH EXTREMIST discussion please.

I will accord you the same.

[mæŋksmən]

and i have a verified IQ well obove average

 

We can see that jim.

[jimbms]

Yes but my finger co-ordination on a keyboard is well below

[Rog]

I’m actually beginning to move from being annoyed by a fool to starting to enjoy what amounts to shooting a fish in a barrel!

 

I’ve decided that this is worth investing a bit of time if for no other reason that it’s opened up a matter that unless fully explored may leave people with a false impression.

 

A false impression and based on nonsense that is being promoted by a fool who is reiterating rubbish about the Liberty tragedy being a deliberate act on behalf of the IDF, and who, by his support for the WTC attack being anything other than an Islamic attack on the USA, shows what a fool he really is.

 

But more than that this is showing how a conspiracy-theory nut-job (sorry about the tautology) ignores the truth and instead constructs a story by selective choosing of events and ignoring of others in order to spin his lies.

In itself that would be bad enough but the knock on effect is to create or promulgate something that is both unfounded and soon becomes a Meme in its own right causing no end of trouble.

 

Classic is the infamous ‘Blood Libel”, or rather Blood Libels nowadays, and of course the infamous 9/11 “it was the Jeeews wot dun it” rubbish.

 

It also shows how people based on their prejudices and/or partial knowledge of events, even when they have been participants of an event, can some up with an entirely erroneous story of what took place, not always deliberately by any means, but because of proximity to the event causing a lack of perspective.

 

In addition the event itself can be an embarrassment to one or more party or if exposed might jeopardise some more important events that are or were taking place. In the case of the Liberty tragedy the embarrassment factor to the US was huge as it clearly shows in the official report, only relatively recently declassified, that what took place really was a serious breakdown of communications across the piece.

 

If the findings of the Liberty inquiry had been made know immediately they were established then many people would not have been so critical or quick to blame Israel for what was really simply a tragedy of war.

 

OK, let’s go to a narrative of what took place. Not a cut and paste thing but a real and original narrative based on the facts behind a clusterfuck.

 

It’s on record that IDF jets did open fire on the ship, it was on day 4 of the desperately important 6 day war, a thing I happen to know a little more about than perhapse I should, and for rather a good reason, and effing lot more about than you, fool.

 

It was a war of survival against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. I happen to be much better acquainted about the Egyptian theatre than the other two but hey! That’s how the cookie crumbles!

 

As might be expected Joe Public in the US were highly suspicious about an attack on one of their own (funny how ‘blue on blue’ changes hue when it’s someone else that’s hit YOUR blue) and put it down to a deliberate act to outstanding carelessness by Israel.

 

It’s also worth note that the official record of the incident was not released by the US for a variety of reasons, not least because it showed up the confusion that took place, and how easily their comms broke down.

This is especially important because so many “talking heads” made their comments in the absence of the full facts or in some cases for political gain.

 

In fact what too place was NOT a deliberate attack knowingly made against a US ship, nor was it carelessness on the part of the Israelis, and the subsequent US board of Inquiry if anything covered up carelessness and incompetence on the side of the US.

 

Check out the formal report that I identified earlier in this thread.

If anything, and all things considered, there is grudging justification admitted for the actions taken by the IDF by the US inquiry, let alone that it underwrote the fact that the error that was made by the IDF with such tragic consequences was one that is both understandable and reasonable.

 

But hey, fool, let’s not let that get in the way!

 

Much better to continue with perpetrating the same lies and rubbish that’s behind “Der ewige Jude” like nonsense, and that includes us using the blood of Christian children to make our “Matzos for Pesach” eh?

 

What is especially interesting is how people, most of whom were not even associated with what took place let alone being within 5000 miles of it, rant on about how unbelievable it is that there could be such a thing happen. The withholding of the findings of the formal inquiry no doubt had a deal to do with that.

 

And yet, just to divert for a moment, in Iraq how often did the US fire on allies in the coalition, people on the same side as themselves let alone operating at arms length from operations as the US were doing in the six day war? Was THAT ever interpreted as being a deliberate attack on an ally?

 

But how willingly the assorted Jew Haters and Jew Baiters such as you, fool, whoop with joy at what you THINK you’ve discovered and spread it as if it were truth. Polluting others much as you were probably polluted yourself by bigoted fools into becoming the next generation of bigoted fools.

 

But back to events, and let’s put things in context.

 

In May of ’67 the region became unstable as three Arab states decided on a concerted attack on Israel.

As a prelude Nasser threw out the UN peacekeeping force and moved masses of troops into The Sinai and closed access to Eliat.

 

In the US LBJ was tied up with the Vietnam war, a thing that Nasser and The Arab League thought would be given higher priority than looking after Israel, and had thought to exploit but they were wrong.

 

Johnson saw the potential closure of the Suez canal as a thing to be avoided quite apart from the consequences of the loss of Israel to Middle East politics.

 

He knew that if Israel did fall then all hell would have broken out amongst the Arab states as they fought over who got what, and so LJB sent The Sixth into the region ready for whatever was needed in order to protect US “Vital Interests” (oil) but issued orders to stay out of reach, in fact to keep “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from Port Said.”

 

BUT …. Captain McGonagle of The Liberty received different orders, to sail "at best speed" to a point just half a mile outside Egyptian and Israeli territorial waters. (twelve and six nautical miles respectively)

 

Now read on. Let’s put things in a little context one to another.

 

There was a real concern in Israel about the likelihood of a land invasion of Israel, especially as it was on the coast that so many of the centers of population were located, not to mention industrial infrastructure was based.

 

The opposition was huge with the Egyptian navy having a five to one superiority over the Israeli navy, and the presence of not far short of a hundred Soviet ships of various kinds (no cruise liners though!) in theatre.

Added to that the less than successful results achieved by the Israeli naval forces against the ports of Syria and Egypt didn’t help confidence of being able to defend against a coastal attack one little bit.

 

Because of that cousin Yitzhak (Yithzak Rabin to you, fool) formally informed the US naval attaché that Israel would take any and all measures to defend the coastline and all unidentified vessels would be attacked and hopefully sunk.

 

He also asked that the US should identify all US ships in the danger zone so that they could be avoided or that they be “got out of Dodge”.

 

But the US chose not to identify what they had where (because they wanted to keep listening to Soviet chatter and apparently feared who was doing what might be leaked to the Soviets) and didn’t even mention the Liberty, which actually had been signaled to get out of the area but the message didn’t reach the Captain (see the report, it makes much of this).

 

So he didn’t get the message, and the US didn’t provide a point of contact with the Israelis so that there would be in effect a hot line if questions of identity arose.

 

It even came to the point that the Israeli ambassador to the US formally told the US sectary of State that (in his reported words) "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet”.

 

And so, on the 8th Of June Liberty came “on station”, but precisely where she was not supposed to be or where she was thought to be by the US navy.

 

What’s more in waters not a sea lane used by commercial traffic, and just schlepping along at crawling speed in an area that earlier Egypt had unilaterally announced she was declaring to be closed waters to ships from neutral nations.

 

The “fucks” were now “clustering”.

 

The Captain of The Liberty knew he was in a dodgy position and asked for protection but this was refused on the basis that the ship was thought to be clearly identified as who she was and flying the US flag, actually a wrong assumption as she was on a clandestine "listening" mission on the Russians . Pity it was such a small flag she was flying as was testified to in the official inquiry.

 

So come around 0600 local time an IDF observer on an IDF plane is on record as identifying a US ship identified as the Liberty about seventy miles off the coast of the Gaza Strip. At 06:00 hours. Seventy miles away.

 

Only three hours later a different IDF jet reported an a ship which was described as being (from the IDF report) as being "gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships" twenty miles north of a part of the Sinai that had been taken by Israel the previous day.

 

No mention was made of a 5 foot by 8 foot flag because there WAS no 5 foot by 8 foot flag. There was a SMALL ensign as appears in witness statements, the assumption that there was a large flag flying is just that. An assumption that an ensign is always 5 x 8.

 

Now the overfly by Israeli jets. There were a great many IDF missions taking place off the coast, mostly to and from conflict but also watching for submarines from the Egyptian navy some of which had been seen already.

 

So let’s keep to the facts on record. At just before 11.30 there was a massive explosion close to where the IDF troops were dug in. The area had been under shellfire the previous day from Egyptian ships and so the belief was that this was starting up again. Then there’s a tragic turn of events. Liberty, having reached the Northern end of her patrol run altered course and headed back Southerly, and in the general direction of Port Said, the direction that a "hostile" would be taking after an attack.

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch in Tel Aviv, the reports of what were believed to be shelling from the guys on the ground were taken as a resumption of what had taken place the previous day and possibly as a lead in to an invasion from the sea.

 

This was in the middle of a hot as hell war, remember.

 

And the “clustering of fucks” intensifies.

 

Now, fool, you will need to use your brain, no easy thing for you so I’ve noticed, and so I will try to make this simple for you, but keep note of times, distances, speeds, and events.

 

The guys on the ground were “bricking it”. Few in number, believed to be under shell fire and with an amphibious invasion believed to be imminent, they once again called in for rapid help as they saw none in evidence.

 

As a result of this repeated call at 12:00 IDF torpedo boats were ordered to intercept and destroy unidentified vessels in the area. There was no air power available at that immediate time due to more pressing needs elsewhere though air cover would be available within the next hour as aircraft became available.

 

It is on record that at around 13:40 an unidentified ship had been sighted slightly to the North of where the supposed shell fire had taken place, but now was about 22 miles from the Torpedo boat, and was making toward Egypt at a speed of around 30 knots according to observations made by the crew on the torpedo boat.

 

They were in supposedly closed waters, there was a war going on, there was no reason to believe that the US had vessels in the area, in fact the precise opposite. And at 22 miles distance would have been barely visible if at all and was probably only seen on radar.

 

Now here’s a very important fact. The speed of the boat seen by the IDF was unusually fast and moreover was such that there was no way that the IDF boats could have engaged it before it made Egyptian waters and safety.

 

Because of this the IDF lead boat called up immediate emergency air support, and two jets were diverted. The possibility of a second boat, this time an actual warship should not be discounted.

 

Remember, fool, this is ALL on record and lines up with observations reported by survivors of the Liberty tragedy though their interpretation was skewed.

 

The jets made two high sped passes at 3000 feet above the boat that they had seen and the pilots are on record (including audio tape records of radio traffic) as reporting seeing a ship that was (and I quote verbatim) "gray with two guns in the forecastle, a mast and funnel." The pilots described what they saw as appearing to be “a ‘Z’ or Hunt-class destroyer but without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy”

It is on record that the lead pilot was repeatedly asked if he could see any flag, his reply was no, (and with the ensign that was flying not being a full size flag as well as the presence of only a slight breeze that’s hardly surprising) and the only lettering that could be determined was some “black letters” painted on the hull.

 

From a fast jet operating in hostile conditions and given all the circumstances I don’t think that I’d have looked too closely either, especially as no ‘friendly’ shipping was supposed to be in the area, in fact just the opposite.

 

What’s more the surface speed of the vessel that was seen and being monitored by the torpedo boats was well above the maximum speed that the liberty could make. It has never been investigated if there was a second boat in the area that was being watched on radar while the Liberty was being assumed to be the potential hostile.

 

 

So clusterfuck one emerges. TWO ships? different speeds, same course. Speed checked by torpedo boats, speed NOT verified by fast jets ‘cos it simply wasn’t possible especially in the limited time available in which to make decisions and take actions.

 

And every indication was that the ship seen by the fast jest was the ship believed to have shelled the IDF troops further north.

 

So whatchagoin’ to do? Let the enemy get away?

 

It’s on record that the IAF chief contacted the US Naval Attaché, Castle, to try to establish if the ship seen in the area could possibly be a US vessel, but Castle denied having the slightest knowledge of where the Liberty was.

Interestingly this was denied by the Captain of the Liberty who stated categorically that Castle did indeed know precisely where his ship was all of the time.

 

And so at just before 14:00 the first attack was made by the first IDF jet.

 

Now I could carry on, I could bring in a whole mess of information from a number of sources and all of it simply adds to the fact that what took place was a tragic accident of war.

 

A ship where it should not have been, a breakdown in communications on the US side, secrecy about its presence in case the Russians, probably under persuasion from the Syrians or Jordanians took it as proof that the US was going to engage the Sixth fleet in a general invasion of the oil rich region, and a whole lot more besides.

All of which resulted in the facts that had they been made public at the time would have underwritten what took place as being a tragic accident but instead were kept under wraps so allowing the paranoid and the hate-meisters to create a pile of bullshit and revel in it.

 

In putting that little lot together I’ve actually invested time, effort, and even called on a few old friends who really DO know what happened.

 

I’ve also referred to a whole lot of files including but not limited to the Yerushalmi report, Israel Defense Forces Archive, 2104/92/47, (unlikely to be generally available) and parts from ISA, 4079/26 Foreign Ministry Files, (also probably not generally accessible though various sites quote from relevant parts of both). I’ve not just “cut and pasted” material such as you have done without even understanding what it was you were cut and pasting.

So now YOU use Occams razor, fool.

 

Rather than spin (or in your case regurgitate) some nonsense theory to explain why Israel should knowingly attack a US vessel, a reason that I for one can not imagine, instead why not realise that what happened was a tragic event typical of what happens in war time that was an embarrassment mostly to the US because it showed up their incompetence but also to the Israelis because they had accidentally injured an ally.

 

What crap will you come out with next I wonder. What other bit of nonsense that has been created by evil and / or stupid people and is being pushed out by other evil and / or stupid people.

 

Things like the cowardly murderous attack on the WTC being an “inside job” or one undertaken by Mossad.

 

Oh silly me! I forgot! You’ve played that card already.

[jimbms]

hehehehehe I've not had such a good laugh as watching you two since I saw my granny get her tits caught in the mangler.

[Rog]

hehehehehe I've not had such a good laugh as watching you two since I saw my granny get her tits caught in the mangler.

 

 

You're right.

 

I've been "had" by a troll!

[mæŋksmən]

Your out of your depth rog.

 

My replies to your substantial post will take some time to edit in you will see when they are complete, have some restraint until then please.

Please try and stay focused on evidence of your position, handwaving strawman emotional or derogatory remarks only show the weakness of your position, it was after all you who stated that YOU are going to prove to the forum that your jewish brothers did not murder those american sailors in cold blood, not withstanding the war crime of strayffing the lifeboats and sailors in the water.