Blair Peach Killed By Police

[Chinahand]

Mæŋksmən - I hope you follow your own advice. Rog's posts are bad enough, but let me be blunt, yours are worse.

 

This exchange is going no where.

 

Please no more cut and paste bloat.

 

But I would be interested to try and understand your attitude towards Zionism (I've taken you to task about it before but you didn't reply), and I'd really like to understand more about what you think about 7/7 - are you really saying the exercise involved 1000s of people actually in the stations attacked - I say that is wrong, it has been categorically denied by Peter Power who ran the exercise and who discussed it, in too general terms, on the Radio immediately after the attacks starting the conspiracy theories.

 

Power has said - our exercise (which involved just a few people as crisis managers actually responding to a simulated series of activities involving, on paper, 1000 staff).

 

He also said:

 

As there had been eighteen terrorist bomb attacks on tube trains prior to 2005, choosing the London Underground was logical rather than just prescient. With this in mind it was hardly surprising that Deutsche Bank had run a similar exercise a few days before and, prior to that, a multi-agency (and much publicised) exercise code-named Osiris II had simulated a terrorist attack at Bank tube station. Moreover, I had also taken part in a BBC Panorama programme in 2004 as a panellist alongside Michael Portillo MP et al, in an unscripted debate (we had no idea at all what the scenario was to be?) on how London might once again, deal with terrorist attacks, only this time it was fictional (created entirely by the BBC).

 

In short, some of the research for our exercise had already been done. The scenario developed for our client even started by using fictitious news items from the Panorama programme then, as with any walk through exercise, events unfolded solely on a screen as dictated by the facilitator without any external injects or actions beyond the exercise room. Also factored into the scenario was to be an above ground fictitious bomb exploding not far from the head office of the protected Jewish Chronicle magazine where for exercise purposes, our imagined terrorists would have been aware that commuters would now be walking to work (past a building already considered a target) as some tube stations would have been closed.

 

Of just eight nearby tube stations that fell within possible exercise scope, three were chosen that, by coincidence, were involved in the awful drama that actually took place on 7 July 2005. A level of scenario validation that on this occasion, we could have done without.

 

My guess is that security companies do exercises of this type every week in London - you claim the odds are such that this has to be a conspiracy. I think that shows a real misunderstanding of odds. Its a coincidence but to claim it as evidence of a conspiracy shows in my mind a very atrange attitude.

 

Similarly with your claims about Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

You say your suspect those who benefit from the issues as causing them - what must you think of poor old Winston Churchill?

[mæŋksmən]

The irony of your words about bloat are not lost on me i assure you.

 

I will get back to about 7/7 and your sanitised PETER POWER version, your talking to someone who listened to him on the day, also theres VIDS of the news report still doing the rounds, what has been sterilised from the net and the associated news sites are the shootings on canary wharf shown on news channels world wide including aus and new zealand all thru the next day.

As for now im busy with rog, and on that subject i would like to make clear i dont give a flying fuck what you think of my posting style.

 

Your just another one who thinks he can marshall a conversation in whatever direction he has his aces lined up in.

you try and reduce to woo, and marginalise with disparagement, those that dont agree with your position.

Im not interested in the nuts and bolts of the events themselves just the consequences and the implications of prior and later actions.

[Rog]

You can forget about me, fool. I’ve absolutely buried the trash you cut and paste.

 

I’ve posted a copy of the US formal inquiry, I’ve posted details about the incident that have probably never been exposed before (can’t be certain of that but it’s probably so) and so it’s a game over for you.

 

You may enjoy being a Jew hater or a Jew baiter or both, you may enjoy being a conspiracy theory aficionado for whatever obscure reason that you have, the bottom line is that the Liberty issue is resolved.

 

A classic war time clusterfuck and nothing more.

 

Mission accomplished.

[macmannin]

You are a horrible four by two Rog.

[mæŋksmən]

I’m actually beginning to move from being annoyed by a fool to starting to enjoy what amounts to shooting a fish in a barrel!

Just because you keep repeating lines like this rog does not add veracity to your assertion, it will take more than hand waving gestures.

I will be back when i have read your post.

 

I’ve decided that this is worth investing a bit of time if for no other reason that it’s opened up a matter that unless fully explored may leave people with a false impression.

 

Unfortunately rog there is only one overwhelming impression one can be left with after hearing the SAILORS who were there, and their superiors have to say.

 

A false impression and based on nonsense that is being promoted by a fool who is reiterating rubbish about the Liberty tragedy being a deliberate act on behalf of the IDF, and who, by his support for the WTC attack being anything other than an Islamic attack on the USA, shows what a fool he really is.

 

Feel free to quote where ive said 911 was anything but an attack by exactly who its alledged it was by, also where ive even mentioned the days events its a strawman attempt to turn my comments on 911 to woo.

My stance on 911 is who aided them and who sanctioned it by looking at who gained most 10 years on, so quit with the woo woo shit.

 

But more than that this is showing how a conspiracy-theory nut-job (sorry about the tautology) ignores the truth and instead constructs a story by selective choosing of events and ignoring of others in order to spin his lies.

In itself that would be bad enough but the knock on effect is to create or promulgate something that is both unfounded and soon becomes a Meme in its own right causing no end of trouble.

 

More of the he is a woo woo shite, my spun lies were all sourced, another strawman deviation from proven fact rog.

Only one way to sort it rog.

A timelined discussion

 

Classic is the infamous ‘Blood Libel”, or rather Blood Libels nowadays, and of course the infamous 9/11 “it was the Jeeews wot dun it” rubbish.

 

A further attempt to turn the debate to woo

Hand waving strawman.

 

 

It also shows how people based on their prejudices and/or partial knowledge of events, even when they have been participants of an event, can some up with an entirely erroneous story of what took place, not always deliberately by any means, but because of proximity to the event causing a lack of perspective.

 

Creative version of eyewitnesses not seeing what they say they did.

Please feel free to research eye witness evidence and its veracity.

 

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/178240.pdf

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/journals/pspi/pspi_7_2_article.pdf

 

 

In addition the event itself can be an embarrassment to one or more party or if exposed might jeopardise some more important events that are or were taking place. In the case of the Liberty tragedy the embarrassment factor to the US was huge as it clearly shows in the official report, only relatively recently declassified, that what took place really was a serious breakdown of communications across the piece.

 

Its virtually all the report focuses on rog, so its no surprise you place alot of emphasis on this aspect, communications across the board between americans did not launch the munnitions at liberty jewish pilots did, whilst those that ordered them to were in full knowledge that it was liberty.

And it is THE report, SINGULAR, after that the event was buried for years.

There was no embarrassment factor for the US , only johnstons protectionism of israel, the US were not flying un-marked mirages and torpedo boats flying jordanian flags.

 

If the findings of the Liberty inquiry had been made know immediately they were established then many people would not have been so critical or quick to blame Israel for what was really simply a tragedy of war.

 

Opinion rog nothing more.

Its my opinion that all hell would of broke out in the navy and especially the crew and the deads relatives had the details of the questions presented and the blackmail employed on the witnesses, its no co-incidence the event was buried and sanitised.

 

OK, let’s go to a narrative of what took place. Not a cut and paste thing but a real and original narrative based on the facts behind a clusterfuck.

 

It’s on record that IDF jets did open fire on the ship, it was on day 4 of the desperately important 6 day war, a thing I happen to know a little more about than perhapse I should, and for rather a good reason, and effing lot more about than you, fool.

 

Please do present your evidence for accidental blue on blue then rog.

Thats evidence, not opinion or hearsay.

However the quote is still mainly consisting of handwaving.

 

It was a war of survival against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. I happen to be much better acquainted about the Egyptian theatre than the other two but hey! That’s how the cookie crumbles!

 

It was a war perpetrated by israel to aquire the golan heights in the face of american opposition, the reason liberty was there sitting in international waters, it could pickup individual tank commanders at upto 600 miles inland.

Israel struck by surprise {SAME AS THEY DID LIBERTY} and destroyed syrias air force on the ground, unsentimental FACTS rog.

 

WIKI

The Six-Day War of June 5–10, 1967 was a war between Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The Arab states of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms.[15] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

 

Fight for survival or expansionism depends on your birth rog.

Israel felt under no threat for survival as proven by their refusal to let the UN run its borders.

{so your emotional play on survival is a strawman}

 

Under no circumstances would Israel agree to the stationing of UN forces on its territory or in any area it occupied.

 

As might be expected Joe Public in the US were highly suspicious about an attack on one of their own (funny how ‘blue on blue’ changes hue when it’s someone else that’s hit YOUR blue) and put it down to a deliberate act to outstanding carelessness by Israel.

 

The old switch and turn rog.

 

It’s also worth note that the official record of the incident was not released by the US for a variety of reasons, not least because it showed up the confusion that took place, and how easily their comms broke down.

This is especially important because so many “talking heads” made their comments in the absence of the full facts or in some cases for political gain.

 

This is a repeat of presented and answered below.

 

In addition the event itself can be an embarrassment to one or more party or if exposed might jeopardise some more important events that are or were taking place. In the case of the Liberty tragedy the embarrassment factor to the US was huge as it clearly shows in the official report, only relatively recently declassified, that what took place really was a serious breakdown of communications across the piece.

 

Its virtually all the report focuses on rog, so its no surprise you place alot of emphasis on this aspect, communications across the board between americans did not launch the munnitions at liberty jewish pilots did, whilst those that ordered them to were in full knowledge that it was liberty.

And it is THE report, SINGULAR, after that the event was buried for years.

There was no embarrassment factor for the US , only johnstons protectionism of israel, the US were not flying un-marked mirages and torpedo boats flying jordanian flags.

 

In fact what too place was NOT a deliberate attack knowingly made against a US ship, nor was it carelessness on the part of the Israelis, and the subsequent US board of Inquiry if anything covered up carelessness and incompetence on the side of the US.

 

Then prove it, opinion and circular assertion prove nothing, without evidence its merely shows nothing more than opinion.

 

Check out the formal report that I identified earlier in this thread.

If anything, and all things considered, there is grudging justification admitted for the actions taken by the IDF by the US inquiry, let alone that it underwrote the fact that the error that was made by the IDF with such tragic consequences was one that is both understandable and reasonable.

 

When you stated the below quote rog, YOU undertook the obligation to show people your position not invite them to read a report many pages long that will bore the tits of them, the onus on proof to backup your assertion is on YOU.

Quote

I’ve decided that this is worth investing a bit of time if for no other reason that it’s opened up a matter that unless fully explored may leave people with a false impression. end quote

 

Please feel free to show the grudging justification and/or the understandable and reasonable.

{not withstanding we havent yet established the veracity of the report}

 

But hey, fool, let’s not let that get in the way!

 

More handwaving.

 

Much better to continue with perpetrating the same lies and rubbish that’s behind “Der ewige Jude” like nonsense, and that includes us using the blood of Christian children to make our “Matzos for Pesach” eh?

 

Another attempt to distract to woo

Strawman

More handwaving.

 

What is especially interesting is how people, most of whom were not even associated with what took place let alone being within 5000 miles of it, rant on about how unbelievable it is that there could be such a thing happen. The withholding of the findings of the formal inquiry no doubt had a deal to do with that.

 

Opinion. and another repeat UNFOUNDED assertion presented and already replied to with.

Opinion rog nothing more.

Its my opinion that all hell would of broke out in the navy and especially the crew and the deads relatives had the details of the questions presented and the blackmail employed on the witnesses, its no co-incidence the event was buried and sanitised.

 

And yet, just to divert for a moment, in Iraq how often did the US fire on allies in the coalition, people on the same side as themselves let alone operating at arms length from operations as the US were doing in the six day war? Was THAT ever interpreted as being a deliberate attack on an ally?

 

Strawman and poor attempt at association nothing to do remotely with internationally watered NEUTRAL liberty.

 

But how willingly the assorted Jew Haters and Jew Baiters such as you, fool, whoop with joy at what you THINK you’ve discovered and spread it as if it were truth. Polluting others much as you were probably polluted yourself by bigoted fools into becoming the next generation of bigoted fools.

 

What is in discussion is the unprovoked attempted sinking of the liberty between at present myself and you, unless ofcourse you are saying that the audience here are bigoted fools, if thats your perception of me, then feel free to rip me a new asshole with evidence of my false claims.

The rest of your quote is again an attempt to reduce to woo, and marginalise my stance, standard practice for a poor debater with a weak arguement.

 

But back to events, and let’s put things in context.

 

Be our guest.

 

In May of ’67 the region became unstable as three Arab states decided on a concerted attack on Israel.

As a prelude Nasser threw out the UN peacekeeping force and moved masses of troops into The Sinai and closed access to Eliat.

In the US LBJ was tied up with the Vietnam war, a thing that Nasser and The Arab League thought would be given higher priority than looking after Israel, and had thought to exploit but they were wrong.

Johnson saw the potential closure of the Suez canal as a thing to be avoided quite apart from the consequences of the loss of Israel to Middle East politics.

He knew that if Israel did fall then all hell would have broken out amongst the Arab states as they fought over who got what, and so LJB sent The Sixth into the region ready for whatever was needed in order to protect US “Vital Interests” (oil) but issued orders to stay out of reach, in fact to keep “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from Port Said.”

 

The area, to use your description has always been unstable, this time it was totally wobbly because of israels unprovoked and surprise attack on the syrian air force whilst it was grounded and not even on high alert, this cowardly expansionist attack resulted in nearly all arab countries going to syrias aid, israel was marginalised by her own hand.

 

Please prove your stance with reputable independent data.

 

BUT …. Captain McGonagle of The Liberty received different orders, to sail "at best speed" to a point just half a mile outside Egyptian and Israeli territorial waters. (twelve and six nautical miles respectively)

 

International waters whether he got the alledged belated orders or not, you forgot to mention that those alledged orders were sent after Israel threatened to sink her in 24 hours if she didnt fuck off.

 

Now read on. Let’s put things in a little context one to another.

 

Be our guest.

 

There was a real concern in Israel about the likelihood of a land invasion of Israel, especially as it was on the coast that so many of the centers of population were located, not to mention industrial infrastructure was based.

 

Indeed there was, you had just declared war on the arab world, still didnt stop you throwing out the UN who would have protected your borders, why ?, because you would have been forced to give up territory, most notably the golan heights and other territories you would not have been able to secure whilst effectively under UN house arrest, the expansion was the reason they had to go.

 

The opposition was huge with the Egyptian navy having a five to one superiority over the Israeli navy, and the presence of not far short of a hundred Soviet ships of various kinds (no cruise liners though!) in theatre.

Added to that the less than successful results achieved by the Israeli naval forces against the ports of Syria and Egypt didn’t help confidence of being able to defend against a coastal attack one little bit.

 

They could of had a 100 to one superiority over israels navy, means zip as israel had air control their navies were worthless after the surprise attack on the syrian airforce that started the war.

The rest of your post as in so many is an emotional plea and not evidenced based statement.

 

Because of that cousin Yitzhak (Yithzak Rabin to you, fool) formally informed the US naval attaché that Israel would take any and all measures to defend the coastline and all unidentified vessels would be attacked and hopefully sunk.

 

More handwaving.

 

 

He also asked that the US should identify all US ships in the danger zone so that they could be avoided or that they be “got out of Dodge”.

 

Did he ? or more hand waving.?

 

 

But the US chose not to identify what they had where (because they wanted to keep listening to Soviet chatter and apparently feared who was doing what might be leaked to the Soviets) and didn’t even mention the Liberty, which actually had been signaled to get out of the area but the message didn’t reach the Captain (see the report, it makes much of this).

 

A repeated unfounded ascertion rog please prove how liberty was in physical danger by not recieving the order to move.

Did she ever leave international waters rog ?.

She could have listened to the russians from over 500 miles away rog.

 

So he didn’t get the message, and the US didn’t provide a point of contact with the Israelis so that there would be in effect a hot line if questions of identity arose.

 

Israel knew she was in that position atleast 24 hours previous as documented already in this thread.

Confirmation by by spotter plane the next day confirmed this.

 

It even came to the point that the Israeli ambassador to the US formally told the US sectary of State that (in his reported words) "if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet”.

 

And fairies fish at the fairy bridge rog.

If you believe there was no way of direct contact at that time under the circumstances, it was a case of dont ring us, we will ring you after we have completed our mission, a mission you are vehremently opposed to mr johnston

 

And so, on the 8th Of June Liberty came “on station”, but precisely where she was not supposed to be or where she was thought to be by the US navy.

 

On station in international waters as a neutral allied observer.

She was not wanted there as israel intended to secure the golan heights later that day against american and UN wishes, and didnt want hampered with international objectoins whilst putting the mission in operation, an operation that johnston would of severed links with israel over, however israels expansionist planning overode all concern about american reaction as time proved not an unwise decision.

 

What’s more in waters not a sea lane used by commercial traffic, and just schlepping along at crawling speed in an area that earlier Egypt had unilaterally announced she was declaring to be closed waters to ships from neutral nations.

 

Documented proof about your egypt claim.

Egypt did not attack neutral shipping.

 

 

The “fucks” were now “clustering”.

 

Handwaving.

 

 

The Captain of The Liberty knew he was in a dodgy position and asked for protection but this was refused on the basis that the ship was thought to be clearly identified as who she was and flying the US flag, actually a wrong assumption as she was on a clandestine "listening" mission on the Russians . Pity it was such a small flag she was flying as was testified to in the official inquiry.

 

She was flying the standard naval flag size rog, the fact you mention the size does not dimish that.

She also had just had her lettering re-done in 10 ft white letters USS LIBERTY.

 

So come around 0600 local time an IDF observer on an IDF plane is on record as identifying a US ship identified as the Liberty about seventy miles off the coast of the Gaza Strip. At 06:00 hours. Seventy miles away.

 

So they confirmed that liberty was still there about 18 hours after telling the yanks to shift her or they will sink it.

 

Only three hours later a different IDF jet reported an a ship which was described as being (from the IDF report) as being "gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships" twenty miles north of a part of the Sinai that had been taken by Israel the previous day.

 

Independent source data please,

 

No mention was made of a 5 foot by 8 foot flag because there WAS no 5 foot by 8 foot flag. There was a SMALL ensign as appears in witness statements, the assumption that there was a large flag flying is just that. An assumption that an ensign is always 5 x 8.

 

Again with repeated assumption on your part,ffs just because you keep repeating yourself does not make your ascertions any truer rog, stick too what you can prove, the flag flown was a standard ensign, thats just incase anyone cannot read 10ft high white letters USS LIBERTY emblazoned down her sides.

 

Now the overfly by Israeli jets. There were a great many IDF missions taking place off the coast, mostly to and from conflict but also watching for submarines from the Egyptian navy some of which had been seen already.

 

Proof that EGYPT had subs and proof they were in operation where you claim.

 

So let’s keep to the facts on record. At just before 11.30 there was a massive explosion close to where the IDF troops were dug in. The area had been under shellfire the previous day from Egyptian ships and so the belief was that this was starting up again. Then there’s a tragic turn of events. Liberty, having reached the Northern end of her patrol run altered course and headed back Southerly, and in the general direction of Port Said, the direction that a "hostile" would be taking after an attack.

 

Laughable rog, an unarmed neutral vessel that israel was fully aware of cannot shell any positions and the fact that you can even start to cite this as a plausible explanation is dire thinking, any army knows from which direction it is recieving shell fire from.

Quite frankly how the israelis thought they could spin this story to the outside world baffles me.

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch in Tel Aviv, the reports of what were believed to be shelling from the guys on the ground were taken as a resumption of what had taken place the previous day and possibly as a lead in to an invasion from the sea.

 

That impossible navy invasion again where the arab nations sacrifice their navys and armys to israeli air superiority/israeli total control.

 

This was in the middle of a hot as hell war, remember.

 

This was on the fourth day of a six day war the day israel intended to secure the golan heights by force in a war that they fired the first shells, without bothering to inform their enemies they were going to war with them, instead choosing to effectively cutting their throats while they slept in destroying syrias grounded air defenses.

 

And the “clustering of fucks” intensifies.

 

More handwaving.

 

Now, fool, you will need to use your brain, no easy thing for you so I’ve noticed, and so I will try to make this simple for you, but keep note of times, distances, speeds, and events.

 

More handwaving.

 

 

The guys on the ground were “bricking it”. Few in number, believed to be under shell fire and with an amphibious invasion believed to be imminent, they once again called in for rapid help as they saw none in evidence.

 

Looks like we have to take your word on it that they couldnt tell from which direction they were supposedly shelled or even that they were shelled.

 

As a result of this repeated call at 12:00 IDF torpedo boats were ordered to intercept and destroy unidentified vessels in the area. There was no air power available at that immediate time due to more pressing needs elsewhere though air cover would be available within the next hour as aircraft became available.

 

So what are you saying the boats attacked first..?

And over the next hour the armie still failed to identify the direction of the alledged shelling.

 

edited to add ive just noticed this is the point you have started to insert into the readers mind subtly the forthcoming ghost ship theory your going to propose further down, !!UNIDENTIFIED VESSELS!!.

 

It is on record that at around 13:40 an unidentified ship had been sighted slightly to the North of where the supposed shell fire had taken place, but now was about 22 miles from the Torpedo boat, and was making toward Egypt at a speed of around 30 knots according to observations made by the crew on the torpedo boat.

 

Its on what or whose record please.?

Also there were 3 torpedo boats.

 

They were in supposedly closed waters, there was a war going on, there was no reason to believe that the US had vessels in the area, in fact the precise opposite. And at 22 miles distance would have been barely visible if at all and was probably only seen on radar.

 

No reason if you ignore fact.

10ft high white lettering.

The warning to get her moved or she would be sunk.

The standard ensign being flown.

Please stop trying to perpetrate in peoples minds that she was on a secret/covert spying mission, dont even hint at it again without substantiation.

 

 

Now here’s a very important fact. The speed of the boat seen by the IDF was unusually fast and moreover was such that there was no way that the IDF boats could have engaged it before it made Egyptian waters and safety.

 

She was in international waters, the rest of your quote could be read as if from a drama novel, stick to facts and evidence as liberty was not steaming to egypt.

All facts are important, all evidence is important, there is no such thing as bad evidence, ALL THAT NEEDS DETERMINED IS WHAT IT IS EVIDENCE OF.

 

Because of this the IDF lead boat called up immediate emergency air support, and two jets were diverted. The possibility of a second boat, this time an actual warship should not be discounted.

 

Well thats convinced me.

 

Remember, fool, this is ALL on record and lines up with observations reported by survivors of the Liberty tragedy though their interpretation was skewed.

 

Handwaving or you would provide verifiable proof.

 

The jets made two high sped passes at 3000 feet above the boat that they had seen and the pilots are on record (including audio tape records of radio traffic) as reporting seeing a ship that was (and I quote verbatim) "gray with two guns in the forecastle, a mast and funnel." The pilots described what they saw as appearing to be “a ‘Z’ or Hunt-class destroyer but without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy”

It is on record that the lead pilot was repeatedly asked if he could see any flag, his reply was no, (and with the ensign that was flying not being a full size flag as well as the presence of only a slight breeze that’s hardly surprising) and the only lettering that could be determined was some “black letters” painted on the hull.

 

Its also on alot more credible records that the pilot identified her as liberty and refused to fire upon her 3 times and was ordered back to base, arrested and relieved of duty, duly jailed and thrown out of the service after losing all entitlements.

court transcripts of his case were/are avaliable.

you have also neglected to mention the box prop spotter planes that buzzed the liberty prior to alledged events, where the co-pilot waves back to the sailors, as the statements from sailors say they were close enoufgh to see each other smile.

that makes them close enough to see 10ft high white letters USS LIBERTY.

 

From a fast jet operating in hostile conditions and given all the circumstances I don’t think that I’d have looked too closely either, especially as no ‘friendly’ shipping was supposed to be in the area, in fact just the opposite.

 

He did look close enough rog, close enough to deny orders put to him 3 times, knowing it was a carreer ending decision.

 

 

What’s more the surface speed of the vessel that was seen and being monitored by the torpedo boats was well above the maximum speed that the liberty could make. It has never been investigated if there was a second boat in the area that was being watched on radar while the Liberty was being assumed to be the potential hostile.

 

Now we have the mystery who dunnit, proof please or have you no more than attempted strawman biulding.

 

 

So clusterfuck one emerges. TWO ships? different speeds, same course. Speed checked by torpedo boats, speed NOT verified by fast jets ‘cos it simply wasn’t possible especially in the limited time available in which to make decisions and take actions.

 

So now you repeat a could of been to try and attatch some credibility to a complete strawman.

 

And every indication was that the ship seen by the fast jest was the ship believed to have shelled the IDF troops further north.

 

So now it was a ghost ship that shelled the israelis and the attempt to sink the liberty and kill all survivors in the water was all a mistake, while the ghost ship, YOUR STRAWMAN slipped away.

 

 

So whatchagoin’ to do? Let the enemy get away?

 

They didnt class themselves as your enemy, thats why they waved to your prop planes pilots earlier in the day.

 

It’s on record that the IAF chief contacted the US Naval Attaché, Castle, to try to establish if the ship seen in the area could possibly be a US vessel, but Castle denied having the slightest knowledge of where the Liberty was.

Interestingly this was denied by the Captain of the Liberty who stated categorically that Castle did indeed know precisely where his ship was all of the time.

 

Who are you going to believe rog..??

Its my belief that the americans knew exactly where liberty was until her transmissions were jammed just before the attack on her, infact Its unthinkable that with 30 or more nsa officials in her bowels all doing their jobs were not in constant live contact.

 

And so at just before 14:00 the first attack was made by the first IDF jet.

 

Your right on the money with that quote rog.

 

Now I could carry on, I could bring in a whole mess of information from a number of sources and all of it simply adds to the fact that what took place was a tragic accident of war.

 

Well im not convinced to be honest rog.

 

 

 

A ship where it should not have been, a breakdown in communications on the US side, secrecy about its presence in case the Russians, probably under persuasion from the Syrians or Jordanians took it as proof that the US was going to engage the Sixth fleet in a general invasion of the oil rich region, and a whole lot more besides.

All of which resulted in the facts that had they been made public at the time would have underwritten what took place as being a tragic accident but instead were kept under wraps so allowing the paranoid and the hate-meisters to create a pile of bullshit and revel in it.

 

Speculation at best, bordering on plain handwaving, certainly unproven in anything but assertion on your part, but if just taking your word for it all, is what you call proving your position then its my opinion you have done a masterful job.

 

 

In putting that little lot together I’ve actually invested time, effort, and even called on a few old friends who really DO know what happened.

 

Youve only scratched the surface rog and mainly copied and edited your post from other sites, probably why you didnt cite them, as then it would be re-alised just how little time you spent.

 

I’ve also referred to a whole lot of files including but not limited to the Yerushalmi report, Israel Defense Forces Archive, 2104/92/47, (unlikely to be generally available) and parts from ISA, 4079/26 Foreign Ministry Files, (also probably not generally accessible though various sites quote from relevant parts of both). I’ve not just “cut and pasted” material such as you have done without even understanding what it was you were cut and pasting.

So now YOU use Occams razor, fool.

 

More handwaving about your impartial israeli reports rog.

 

Rather than spin (or in your case regurgitate) some nonsense theory to explain why Israel should knowingly attack a US vessel, a reason that I for one can not imagine, instead why not realise that what happened was a tragic event typical of what happens in war time that was an embarrassment mostly to the US because it showed up their incompetence but also to the Israelis because they had accidentally injured an ally.

 

Because no matter what spin the incumbant whitehouse and the willing israelis put on it, it plainly was an act of murder including the war crime of strayffing the sailors in the water and strayffing the lifeboats, so regardless of what you believe, how can you try to whitewash the war crime.

It would still have been a war crime even if the ship was hostile.

 

What crap will you come out with next I wonder. What other bit of nonsense that has been created by evil and / or stupid people and is being pushed out by other evil and / or stupid people.

 

More demonisation and handwaving

 

Things like the cowardly murderous attack on the WTC being an “inside job” or one undertaken by Mossad.

 

Another attempt to connect me and the subject to woo, just basic handwaving.

 

Oh silly me! I forgot! You’ve played that card already.

 

I havent played cards with you rog.

 

If what i am claiming is untrue then prove it.

hand waving derogatory postings prove nothing, just as unsubstantiated claims prove nothing, your reluctance to cite your israeli reports

by link show me that any kind of serious investigation will show them up as laughable and only fit for selective quoting.

 

Balls in your court rog, prove me wrong, silence proves you have accepted my assertions on liberty.

[mæŋksmən]

Now you have made your case in one post so i suppose its my turn.

I however intend to work different to you, i intend to grow a post and forward it {deleting the previous post} each time we reach agreement or we are at an impasse.

 

There are stages i intend to go through.

 

Stage one the biuld up to the attack.

 

Stage two the attack itself.

 

Stage three the aftermath.

 

Stage four the intervening years.

 

 

 

 

Can we agree on this part of stage one please.

 

On June 8, 1967 while patrolling in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel.

 

Of a crew of 294 officers and men[4] (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action.[6] The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap.

 

Can we also agree that liberty never left international waters at any time during her mission, and that israel unreservedly acknowledged the 3 statements below please.

 

Israel acknowledged the following facts without qualification:

 

1.USS Liberty was an American ship, hence a neutral vis-à-vis the June 1967 war between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

2.USS Liberty remained in international waters at all times on June 8,

3.The attacking Israeli forces never made a positive identification of the nationality of USS Liberty before unleashing deadly force in their attack on the ship.

 

These are in your idf report.

 

IDF History Report, Exhibit 2-14. This document is a map, prepared by the IDF, that shows the territorial limits of Egypt and Israel, as well as USS Liberty’s track (well outside all claimed territorial seas) on the day of June 8, 1967. Exhibit 2-14

 

That the Naval Department's order not to attack the ship (the Liberty), "for fear of error and out of uncertainty with regard to the true identity of the ship," was not delivered to the torpedo boat division.

 

That it was negligence to give the order to attack a warship without previously establishing, beyond doubt, its national identity and without taking into account the presence of the American Ship, Liberty, in the vicinity of the coast of Israel."

 

Now rog you claim from the reports you posted that israeli spotters only over flew the ship twice on the day of the attack and you were correct thats what they say.

The Israeli report indicates that a ship was reported in the area by

reconnaissance aircraft at 0600 and that another report was received of

a contact between an Israeli aircraft and a surface vessel about 0900.

 

But see the ships log says this.

 

II. Aircraft Surveillance

 

 

reconnaissance overflights of the Liberty at 0515,

0850, 1030, 1056, 1126, 1145, 1220, and 1245.[all times local]

 

So now i have to apply occams razor, is the log of the most sophisticated spying platform on water mistaken or are the reports youve quoted from, i am sure you can see in the face of conflicting data one has take make an informed decision and i am going with the ships log at this point.

 

 

Throughout the remainder of the day prior to the attack, Israeli reconnaissance aircraft regularly flew out to USS Liberty’s position and orbited the ship before returning to their bases in Israel. A total of no fewer than eight (8) such flights were made.

 

So can we agree that at present everything ive posted is factual upto this point only in your next reply.

All links that you require will be posted on request, or at the end of my post and i will reference each quote to each link.

All quotes so far are from the links you posted or freedom of information and court documents that i will reference at the end of my case for cold blooded murder on the part of the israelis, its cold blooded murder or accidental blue on blue as you put it, there is no inbetween rog.

 

 

...................................................................................................

[Rog]

 

 

So can we agree that at present everything ive posted is factual upto this point only in your next reply.

All links that you require will be posted on request, or at the end of my post and i will reference each quote to each link.

All quotes so far are from the links you posted or freedom of information and court documents that i will reference at the end of my case for cold blooded murder on the part of the israelis, its cold blooded murder or accidental blue on blue as you put it, there is no inbetween rog.

 

 

...................................................................................................

 

No. It's bollocks, spin and nonsense.

[mæŋksmən]

Post 66 rog only, can we agree is true and correct so far please, if not please state what you dis-agree with and why you believe different.

[Rog]

Post 66 rog only, can we agree is true and correct so far please, if not please state what you dis-agree with and why you believe different.

 

Who gives a shit.

 

We won, and that's all that really matters.

 

There. That's what you wanted to read. It's not a fact but to you and your kind facts count for zilch

[mæŋksmən]

Are you spitting the dummy out rog.

I will finish my presentation with or without your input.

 

I told you when you were being all cocky you were out of your depth, it was you who stated you knew alot about this case.