Israeli 'intervention'

[jimbms]

Get a life will you, I was asking Bellyup for examples of how much as been given to the world, not for a rant by you on how different groups are putting the place down. Do you always pick up on the wrong question?

[Chinahand]

Yoshke Pandre - the asymmetry in death toll - which has only got worse since these figures were compiled - is the main reason for anger against Israel.

 

7 Palestinian children killed for every Israeli child killed

3 Palestinians not involved in hostilities killed for every Israeli civillian killed.

 

5,000 Palestian deaths verses 1,000 Israeli ones.

 

I am not unsympathetic to Israel's plight, but strongly think its disproportionate use of heavy weapons, tanks, 1000 Ib bombs, demolitions etc has radicalized its enemies and weakened its position.

 

For Israel to be so condemned by the UN's Office for the Coordination for Humanitarian Affairs is a huge own goal:

 

The blockade of Gaza by Israel has been unacceptable, unnecessary and counterproductive from its beginning in 2007. It has worsened conditions of life for one and a half million Palestinians, deepened poverty and food insecurity, prevented reconstruction, and increased aid dependence by destroying livelihoods and economic activity. It has helped only the extremists.

 

He's an Irish military man - in conflict with Hamas* - if any country in the world should be able to run an organized efficient humanitarian relief it should be Israel - the fact they aren't shows clearly they aren't interested in doing so - that helps Israel's enemies and looses it support in the court of public opinion.

 

I basically support Israel, and worry that your blindness to the own goals its policies have caused is based on dogmatism.

 

It is alright to criticize the policies of Israel's various governments - doing so is not anti-semitism.

 

* Can anyone read this - or is it behind the subscription wall?

[bellyup]

Isreal is is a worse position than it has been for many years.

What never ceases to amaze me is how many people in the west seem delighted at the prospect of its downfall.

A country that has given so much to the world .

 

Well don't just leave it at that, at least give some examples.

 

Israel is foremost in medical research and also computer technology here are a few examples taken at random.

 

 

An Israeli company has developed a blood test that diagnoses heart attacks over the telephone.

 

An Israeli research team found that the combination of electrical stimulation and chemotherapy can make cancerous metastases disappear.

 

 

An Israeli company has developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications in hospital, thus eliminating the possibility of human error.

 

Researchers in Israel have developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save the lives of congestive heart failure patients.

 

Israeli scientists have developed the first computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

 

An Israeli doctor headed the Merck team that developed a vaccine against cervical cancer.

 

Israeli engineers and agriculturalists developed a drip irrigation system minimizing the amount of water used to grow crops, and shared the technology with farmers in Nigeria.

 

The Pentium MMX Chip was designed in Israel at Intel.

 

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

 

An Israeli "super-sensor" has been installed in a certain make of mattresses to control snoring.

 

Israeli researchers discovered the molecular trigger that causes psoriasis.

 

Israel has developed the first flight system to protect aircraft against a missile attack.

[bellyup]

Yoshke Pandre - the asymmetry in death toll - which has only got worse since these figures were compiled - is the main reason for anger against Israel.

 

7 Palestinian children killed for every Israeli child killed

3 Palestinians not involved in hostilities killed for every Israeli civillian killed.

 

5,000 Palestian deaths verses 1,000 Israeli ones.

 

Of course the deaths of anyone is to be terrible but the Isrealis dont uses their people as human shields and put them in the line of danger. Hamas militants deliberately fire their missiles from hospitals and crowded civilian areas. The Isrealis do try to prevent death whilst the Hamas militants try to inflict death.

they make no bones about saying this too - their aim is the destruction of Israel and they dont care how many of the people die in achieving this aim.

 

 

I am not unsympathetic to Israel's plight, but strongly think its disproportionate use of heavy weapons, tanks, 1000 Ib bombs, demolitions etc has radicalized its enemies and weakened its position.

 

 

I would like to quote from a senior British Army officer Colonel Richard Kemp, formerly both commander of British forces in Afghanistan .

 

'I don’t think there’s ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza.

 

and on Hamas

 

'Their very modus operandi is built on the, correct, assumption that Western armies will normally abide by the rules. It is not simply that these insurgents do not adhere to the laws of war. It is that they employ a deliberate policy of operating consistently outside international law. Their entire operational doctrine is founded on this basis. In Gaza, as in Basra, as in the towns and villages of southern Afghanistan, civilians and their property are routinely exploited by these groups, in deliberate and flagrant violation of any international laws or reasonable norms of civilised behaviour for both tactical and strategic gain.

 

Stripped of any moral considerations, this policy operates simply and effectively at both levels. On the tactical level, protected buildings, mosques, schools and hospitals, are used as strongholds allowing the enemy the protection not only of stone walls but also of international law. On the strategic level, any mistake, or in some cases legal and proportional response, by a Western army will be deliberately exploited and manipulated in order to produce international outcry and condemnation. And in sophisticated groupings such as Hamas and Hizballah, the media will be exploited also as a critical implement of their military strategy.'

 

Israel warns all non combatants both by leaflets and telephone call before it takes action ( even though this also warms militants of its intentions. ) it even allows cease fire to let aid in ( what country has ever done this during a military operation yet still )

 

Yet still it is always Israel who is demonized by the liberal west - i find this hard to understand.

[Chinahand]

Bellyup ... and therefore you aren't concerned if Israel demolishes the family home of an 18 year old suicide bomber affecting his mother, father, aged aunt, and five other siblings aged between 7 and 17?

 

Even the IDF admits over the scale of destruction of civilian homes during the fighting in Gaza:

 

"It's clear to us that in a small portion of the combat sectors immeasurable damage was caused, and that is very difficult to justify from a legal perspective, particularly if such justifications are called for in legal proceedings with international organizations."

 

Further info.

[jimbms]

Cheers bellyup, at least you managed to answer what was asked. So it seems there is some very good medical research going on there, I never realised that, mainly because as usual the yanks try to hijack ideas. Some of what you put may be up to a little debate but hardly worth losing sleep over, I just asked out of pure interest.

[Terse]

Purely for the sake of 'balance.'

 

LINK to First Exhibition of Palestinian Youth’s Technological Inventions.

[bellyup]

Bellyup ... and therefore you aren't concerned if Israel demolishes the family home of an 18 year old suicide bomber affecting his mother, father, aged aunt, and five other siblings aged between 7 and 17?

 

 

 

Its terrible but what can they do?

Allow suicide bombers to maim and kill the innocent?

Fundamental Islam have radicalized young boys.

This is not the fault of Israel

The only thing is that it may give any would be suicide bomber pause for thought.

Saddam Hussein gave huge cash rewards to the families of suicide bombers i dont know if any other groups still do this

I saw a very sad documentary on suicide bombers. A bereaved Palestinian mother said she had no idea why her son had done it and had she had any inkling would have had no hesitation in giving him up to the Israel rather than he went to his death.

[jimbms]

Bellyup ... and therefore you aren't concerned if Israel demolishes the family home of an 18 year old suicide bomber affecting his mother, father, aged aunt, and five other siblings aged between 7 and 17?

 

Its terrible but what can they do?

Allow suicide bombers to maim and kill the innocent?

Fundamental Islam have radicalized young boys.

This is not the fault of Israel

The only thing is that it may give any would be suicide bomber pause for thought.

Saddam Hussein gave huge cash rewards to the families of suicide bombers i dont know if any other groups still do this

I saw a very sad documentary on suicide bombers. A bereaved Palestinian mother said she had no idea why her son had done it and had she had any inkling would have had no hesitation in giving him up to the Israel rather than he went to his death.

I think Chinahands main point is that it does Israel no good in the international press when it is seen getting it's revenge by demolishing a family home and punishing children just because the bomber is dead, that would be the same as the police here arresting the members of the family of the Cumbrian taxi driver.

[Chinahand]

More than that Jimbms - its not so much the International Press I'm thinking off as the people radicalized through anger at collective punishment. If Mrs Abdullah's boy has done something and the tanks are coming to destroy Mrs Abdullah's house I can understand Mrs Abdullah's community rallying round to try to stop this.

 

That type of community cohesion in resisting outsiders attacking them is incredibly strong - think of the Bogside, the Eastend during the Blitz, or the citizens of Dresden. Israel is actively creating that "spirit of the blitz" within the Palestinian community by its actions - its totally counter productive. A family in Dresden might have been totally against the Nazis, but would still have sent its young men to man an anti-aircraft battery when the sirens sounded.

 

That type of call to resist an invader is being answered throughout Gaza - Israel damns them all as Hamas supporters - it is far far more complicated than that - many of them do not support Hamas, but will support armed resistance to agressors attempting to destroy their homes and communities.

[Yoshke Pandre]

 

I think Chinahands main point is that it does Israel no good in the international press when it is seen getting it's revenge by demolishing a family home and punishing children just because the bomber is dead, that would be the same as the police here arresting the members of the family of the Cumbrian taxi driver.

 

To hell with the international press and if the family of the Cumberland taxi driver had been aiding and abetting him as is so often the case with HOMICIDE bombers that is the very least that they should do.

[Yoshke Pandre]

Yoshke Pandre - the asymmetry in death toll - which has only got worse since these figures were compiled - is the main reason for anger against Israel.

 

7 Palestinian children killed for every Israeli child killed

3 Palestinians not involved in hostilities killed for every Israeli civillian killed.

 

5,000 Palestian deaths verses 1,000 Israeli ones.

 

Its because we’re a whole lot more careful to keep our families out of the conflict and line of fire. We don’t have our IDF members hiding and operating behind civilians, many of whom see their being used as shields as maretyrdom a thing much to be desired by them, and we don’t use our kids as a means of inciting action.

 

A kid with a stone can do a lot of damage to a soldier, and also lets be careful about the casual use of the world child. A person of twelve or thirteen is just as capable of firing an RPG as a man of twenty and when there’s a riot we don’t have time to check on ages of those engaging us or where the snipers are situated waiting for our forces to be enticed into by the so called civilians. It’s a similar story with civilian deaths. We build shelters for our civilians, we don’t use our civilians as shelters.

 

I am not unsympathetic to Israel's plight, but strongly think its disproportionate use of heavy weapons, tanks, 1000 Ib bombs, demolitions etc has radicalized its enemies and weakened its position.

 

There is disproportionate use of weapons, those weapons are not heavy weapons which are used in campaigns to push back on creeping terrorism or to eliminate the terrorist planners and leaders, the disproportionate use of weapons is when civilians and kids are used as weapons. It’s us who are outgunned in this conflict, we simply don’t have a population our leaders can use as consumables nor do we have the propensity to use lies or have the sympathy of the liberal left many of whom hate the US and wrongly see us as the US in the Middle East. That we are not.

 

For Israel to be so condemned by the UN's Office for the Coordination for Humanitarian Affairs is a huge own goal:

 

The blockade of Gaza by Israel has been unacceptable, unnecessary and counterproductive from its beginning in 2007. It has worsened conditions of life for one and a half million Palestinians, deepened poverty and food insecurity, prevented reconstruction, and increased aid dependence by destroying livelihoods and economic activity. It has helped only the extremists.

 

The United Nations is no longer the institution it once was. It has become a corrupt vote exchange where nations sell and buy votes in order to obtain their own wants. The Whaling commission is a fine example of where Japan used its financial muscle to get votes against the moratorium on whaling. In the same way so nations that are opposed it Israel use their influence and the recent Goldstone report shows this perfectly.

 

http://www.goldstonereport.org/ is worth reading. It tells a sorry story of what happens when what was a fine ideal gets trodden into the ground by the influence and oil and religion hegemony by parties who oppose the western nations in general and Israel in particular.

 

The problems with the report are huge and attempts have been made to cover them up even down to this

 

http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2010/05/10/goldstone-altered-un-letterhead-to-hide-reports-tainted-origins/

 

 

If people are interested, really interested in gaining a meaningful and balanced insight into what is taking place in the world with regard to Israel, and it is not a five minute thing to do, the mass of information contained on the http://www.goldstonereport.org/ site is probably a very good start, especially following the references out shown in the left hand column.

 

The UN is no longer a good source for anything. It has not been for a number of years.

 

 

He's an Irish military man - in conflict with Hamas* - if any country in the world should be able to run an organized efficient humanitarian relief it should be Israel - the fact they aren't shows clearly they aren't interested in doing so - that helps Israel's enemies and looses it support in the court of public opinion.

 

How much more should we be doing for a place that has elected a government that is dedicated to our destruction?

 

I basically support Israel, and worry that your blindness to the own goals its policies have caused is based on dogmatism.

 

By dogmatism I suppose you mean staying alive and not allowing our homeland to be taken from us AGAIN.

 

It is alright to criticize the policies of Israel's various governments - doing so is not anti-semitism.

 

It is when what’s being criticised is what is being done to protect us and our homeland, done legally, done within the Geneva protocols in spite of what is being claimed and involves a massive amount of humanitarian aid and support. People wrongly see the Gaza strip as some form of internment which it isn’t but even if it were the solution for those who feel such to be so is simple. Stop doing the crime and you’ll stop doing the time.

[Tugger]

The demolition of the homes of the families of suicide bombers constitutes collective punishment and is a breach of the Geneva Conventions.

 

The use of disproportionate force against the Palestinians violates the Geneva Conventions.

 

The settlements violate the Geneva Conventions

[bellyup]

The demolition of the homes of the families of suicide bombers constitutes collective punishment and is a breach of the Geneva Conventions.

 

The use of disproportionate force against the Palestinians violates the Geneva Conventions.

 

The settlements violate the Geneva Conventions

 

 

 

The use of civilians as human shields as do the Hamas militants is against the Genevra Conventions

the use of missiles against the innocent Israel civilian population is against the Genevra convention

Suicide bombing of innocent civilians is against the Genevra conventions.

The kidnapping and imprisonment without access to the Rec Cross of a citizen ( Gilad Shalit) from their own coutry is against the Genevra Conventions.

[Tugger]

And you condemn violations of the Geneva Conventions, do you, bellyup?