Israeli 'intervention'

[mæŋksmən]

No i think the radicals are capable of backing israel into such a tight corner that its either yeild completely to international will or carry out a threat to nuke another country, thus ensuring retaliation, and mutual destruction of us all.

 

America is run by dual citizenship israelis in all the right places, american media is wholely israeli owned, the israeli lobbiest groups are the largest and most well funded lobbiest groups on the planet, you need to do some proper research LDV, then, and only then get into topics like this.

Theres one thing i appreciate you cannot do and that is live and experience their activities for the last 50 years, if you had you would know better.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

No i think the radicals are capable of backing israel into such a tight corner that its either yeild completely to international will or carry out a threat to nuke another country, thus ensuring retaliation, and mutual destruction of us all.

There is a difference between making explicit threats of use to deter another nation, but it is another to actually use weapons. And threats to use nuclear weapons don't necessarily ensure retaliation, rather they ensure prudence on the part of the deterred.

But you also have the issue of Israel openly declaring it has such weapons in the first place, when the nation arguably benefits from a form of existential deterrence.

 

America is run by dual citizenship israelis in all the right places, american media is wholely israeli owned, the israeli lobbiest groups are the largest and most well funded lobbiest groups on the planet, you need to do some proper research LDV, then, and only then get into topics like this.

Theres one thing i appreciate you cannot do and that is live and experience their activities for the last 50 years, if you had you would know better.

I think you exaggerate somewhat the DEGREE of influence the lobby has on directing American policy. In any case, that does not mean they provide unconditional support to whatever government comes to power in Israel and the policies they decide on.

That lobby can have influence on Israel when it is given

[mæŋksmən]

There is a difference between making explicit threats of use to deter another nation, but it is another to actually use weapons. And threats to use nuclear weapons don't necessarily ensure retaliation, rather they ensure prudence on the part of the deterred.

But you also have the issue of Israel openly declaring it has such weapons in the first place, when the nation arguably benefits from a form of existential deterrence.

 

If we had nothing to fear from arab radicals, then there would be no fuss over iran going nuclear, the thought or possibility of that happening is just not sanctionable to the israeli current heirachy, and they are totally unpredictable, always have been, infact their unpredictability is the only predictable thing about them.

 

 

I think you exaggerate somewhat the DEGREE of influence the lobby has on directing American policy. In any case, that does not mean they provide unconditional support to whatever government comes to power in Israel and the policies they decide on.

That lobby can have influence on Israel when it is given

 

WELL DONT THINK, educate yourself then come back with what you know, im not interested in your summisations..

 

And another thing you disputed a post or 2 ago about them considering themselves gods children, all my life ive heard jesus described as the king of the jews, nuff said.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

[quote name='mæŋksmən' date='02 June 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1275500126' post='536981

If we had nothing to fear from arab radicals, then there would be no fuss over iran going nuclear, the thought or possibility of that happening is just not sanctionable to the israeli current heirachy, and they are totally unpredictable, always have been, infact their unpredictability is the only predictable thing about them.What the West fears most is losing control and influence over the Middle East economically and militarily. It would also fear the relative loss of power that Israel would have in the region in dealing with matters on its backdoor when Iran has something to say about it.

 

WELL DONT THINK, educate yourself then come back with what you know, im not interested in your summisations..

Well all you've argued is that the lobby exists and influence. Unless you have further evidence to back up your claims. Nevertheless, I think it can be easily recognise that the lobby will have particular desires for Israel, desires that are not always met by the politicians in Israel.

 

And another thing you disputed a post or 2 ago about them considering themselves gods children, all my life ive heard jesus described as the king of the jews, nuff said.

Yes, they're arrogant and it is very unfortunate that politicians are religious. But you seem to think that because they are religious and believe they are the chosen people that this will make them irrational and act differently from other politicians in other nations. Why is this? What makes them different from Christian politicians or do you draw no distinction?

[mæŋksmən]

Your post makes no sense, you have my name on your quotes, sort it out ffs.

 

Yes, they're arrogant and it is very unfortunate that politicians are religious. But you seem to think that because they are religious and believe they are the chosen people that this will make them irrational and act differently from other politicians in other nations. Why is this? What makes them different from Christian politicians or do you draw no distinction?

 

 

ffs care to explain which other christian politicians have ordered piracy and murder in international waters in the last few days then.

 

What difficulty are you having in grasping israels total unpredictability, which in turn makes it impossible for them to be trusted, their word means fuck all, an israeli radical is just another an arab terrorist, only these terrorists work like trojan horses from inside the international system, israels intent is clear and has been so for many years, nothing will stop them, best that can happen is delaying the innevitable, they see themselves as the superior race atleast in the middle east, i personally think they see themselves as superior to the whole world,

If they ever get their wish and one day rule the middle east, they will without doubt turn on america and the rest of us if need be without compunction.

[jimbms]

Your post makes no sense, you have my name on your quotes, sort it out ffs.

 

That's a bit rich coming from you.

[bellyup]

Let me just get this straight: a flotilla of ships is in international waters when it is attacked by Israeli commandos.

As is the right of any vessel in that situation, it resists a hostile boarding in international waters.

Israel then tries to declare that the violence should be blamed on those who resisted the illegal boarding.

 

I'm sure that Rog (in the finest tradition of Israeli spin doctors) will put a different slant on this, but the fact is that Israel seems hell-bent on losing the few friends it has left in the international community.

 

Let me get this straight

A bunch of 'peace' activists mainly of Turkish nationality decide to take 'aid ' to the beleaguered Palestinians.

10,000 tonnes of aid to be exact .

This it seemed needed 700 people to deliver.

 

Now bearing in mind that the Turks are at present bombing the bejasus out of the Kurds ( who would like their own state)

How would they feel if a bunch of Israelis headed a flotilla of humanitarian 'aid' to the kurds.

 

Also Gaza is not blockaded.

15000 tonnes of aid goes through EVERY WEEK!

 

Look at the TV there are healthy lively youngsters running about - no one is starving!

Sick people are treated in Israeli hospitals the same as any other patient.

They have just built an Olympic sized swimming pool there.

Yet the Palestinians funded by the gullible west carries on its old song of grievance and victimhood.

More damage is done to its people by the fanatics that flourish under the Hamas government ( they burned down a childrens home a couple of weeks back - cant have the kiddies having fun - anyway it was only funded by the UNWRA people - they will give us another!

Also Egypt has the same border restrictions - blockade ( yet no one mentions this) and only yesterday decided to open them for a while.

There is a crossing at Rafah they dont have to go through Israel

 

The entire exercise is so obviously engineered from start to finish.

Firstly the well organized demonstrations in Turkey

Everyone correctly turned out with appropriate anti Israeli headbands and piles of Israeli flags for the burning of.

Now tell me who has stacks of Israeli flags all ready for burning in the streets?

 

Turkey has obviously allied itself with Iran and intends to ignite the Middle East.

There is no other reason for such transparent provocation.

The Turkish 'humanitarian ' group has connections with Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

All the public 'outrage' again is so biased against Israel.

Where is the outrage for the Kurds whom the Turks are bombing?

The outrage for China - who occupies Tibet

For Darfur where hundreds die everyday - not for want of spices or plastic toys but for want of food.

Not only that but they being raped and murdered by the Islamic regime there - where is the world outrage?

 

But hey ho this is all so boring much more fashionable to don a checkered khafiah and look the part!

 

The gullible liberal lefties in the west has fell for this hook line and sinker

 

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Let me get this straight

A bunch of 'peace' activists mainly of Turkish nationality decide to take 'aid ' to the beleaguered Palestinians.

10,000 tonnes of aid to be exact. This it seemed needed 700 people to deliver.

What is it you're sceptical about exactly? That it WASN'T aid being sent to Palestine?

And why the question over the number of people on the boat, why does it matter?

 

Now bearing in mind that the Turks are at present bombing the bejasus out of the Kurds ( who would like their own state)

How would they feel if a bunch of Israelis headed a flotilla of humanitarian 'aid' to the kurds.

Not happy. But nobody denies that the Israeli government is going to be happy about it. Of course they won't be!

 

Also Gaza is not blockaded.

15000 tonnes of aid goes through EVERY WEEK!

Ah right, so there is a need for aid in that region.

 

Look at the TV there are healthy lively youngsters running about - no one is starving!

Sick people are treated in Israeli hospitals the same as any other patient.

They have just built an Olympic sized swimming pool there.

Wow, some Palestinians aren't starving enough that they can't run, and BETTER, they have a SWIMMING POOL. What can they complain about?

 

More damage is done to its people by the fanatics that flourish under the Hamas government ( they burned down a childrens home a couple of weeks back - cant have the kiddies having fun - anyway it was only funded by the UNWRA people - they will give us another!

Well it's tit for tat. The Israeli government uses terrorism and it is used against Israeli civilians by Hamas.

 

Also Egypt has the same border restrictions - blockade ( yet no one mentions this) and only yesterday decided to open them for a while.

There is a crossing at Rafah they dont have to go through Israel

But the Egyptian blockade has been established because of what happened years ago when Palestinians flooded over the borders to get out or to get supplies because of the economic situation they have found themselves in due to Israeli policies. It is Israeli that is the problem.

 

The entire exercise is so obviously engineered from start to finish.

Engineered to make Israel look bad? Probably! And why not? Are Israeli policies towards Palestine acceptable?

 

In any case, this was a unarmed vessel heading to Palestine (what should have been and still should be sovereign nation, rather than under Israel control) that was BOARDED by members of the Israeli military in international waters. Were this to be just off the shores of Palestine it would still seemed unjustifiable to me, but what makes you think that Israel has been unfairly treated by public opinion given that this took place in international waters?

[bellyup]

Let me get this straight

A bunch of 'peace' activists mainly of Turkish nationality decide to take 'aid ' to the beleaguered Palestinians.

10,000 tonnes of aid to be exact. This it seemed needed 700 people to deliver.

What is it you're sceptical about exactly? That it WASN'T aid being sent to Palestine?

And why the question over the number of people on the boat, why does it matter?

 

Of course its matters!

Its 10,000 tonnes less than goes into Gaza from Isreal EVERYWEEK.

700 people why ?

What are they going to do?

What does it cost to transport and feed them on the boat ?

Wouldnt it be better to actually transport more aid to the palestinians if that is the intention?

Who pays for the passage and keep of these 700?

Answe the Turks it was a turkisd boat that casued the problem

For what reason?

the Turks are not known as humanitarians they are killing kurds for goodness sake!

 

 

 

 

Now bearing in mind that the Turks are at present bombing the bejasus out of the Kurds ( who would like their own state)

How would they feel if a bunch of Israelis headed a flotilla of humanitarian 'aid' to the kurds.

Not happy. But nobody denies that the Israeli government is going to be happy about it. Of course they won't be!

 

Also Gaza is not blockaded.

15000 tonnes of aid goes through EVERY WEEK!

Ah right, so there is a need for aid in that region.

 

Look at the TV there are healthy lively youngsters running about - no one is starving!

Sick people are treated in Israeli hospitals the same as any other patient.

They have just built an Olympic sized swimming pool there.

Wow, some Palestinians aren't starving enough that they can't run, and BETTER, they have a SWIMMING POOL. What can they complain about?

 

 

Starving people cannot run or swim they are too lethargic to move.

Think Darfur and Rwanda

 

More damage is done to its people by the fanatics that flourish under the Hamas government ( they burned down a childrens home a couple of weeks back - cant have the kiddies having fun - anyway it was only funded by the UNWRA people - they will give us another!

Well it's tit for tat. The Israeli government uses terrorism and it is used against Israeli civilians by Hamas.

 

 

I see you you will be happy to contribute to a charity that builds facilities for the Children of Gaza THAT FANATICS NOT ISRAELIS BURNED DOWN! ( they do this because they do not wish the children to have a normal life - it is the fanatics fostered under the aegis of Hamas that is destroying the lives of the people of Gaza.

Also Egypt has the same border restrictions - blockade ( yet no one mentions this) and only yesterday decided to open them for a while.

There is a crossing at Rafah they dont have to go through Israel

But the Egyptian blockade has been established because of what happened years ago when Palestinians flooded over the borders to get out or to get supplies because of the economic situation they have found themselves in due to Israeli policies. It is Israeli that is the problem.

 

Rubbish the Egyptians can open their crossing to their Arab brothers ANYTIME THEY LIKE! Of course they dont like because a) they don't want the troublesome Palestinians as their problem ( despite the fact that Gaza was under Egyptian rule previously)

b) because they do an extremely good trade in black market trade through the tunnel system.

 

The entire exercise is so obviously engineered from start to finish.

Engineered to make Israel look bad? Probably! And why not? Are Israeli policies towards Palestine acceptable?

 

You want to see the ME ignite its not about the Palestinians, the Arab nations coudnt give a monkeys about the Palestinians - they dont even like them! Iran wishes to take control of the ME the Palestinians and the Isrealis are both in their ways Patsies

 

In any case, this was a unarmed vessel heading to Palestine (what should have been and still should be sovereign nation, rather than under Israel control) that was BOARDED by members of the Israeli military in international waters. Were this to be just off the shores of Palestine it would still seemed unjustifiable to me, but what makes you think that Israel has been unfairly treated by public opinion given that this took place in international waters?

 

The video looks pretty authentic to me peace activist dont attack soldiers with iron bars .

These were Islamic fanatics intent on causing trouble.

The Palestinians have had many opportunities to have their own state .

This is not what the surrounding Arab states want.

They are in the main tyrannical Islamic theocracies that oppress their own people - unlike Israel which is still the only real democracy in the ME.

 

It is to distract attention from their own despotic regimes and the oppression of their own people they use Israel as a scapegoat.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Its 10,000 tonnes less than goes into Gaza from Isreal EVERYWEEK.

700 people why ?

What are they going to do?

What does it cost to transport and feed them on the boat ?

Wouldnt it be better to actually transport more aid to the palestinians if that is the intention?

Who pays for the passage and keep of these 700?

Answe the Turks it was a turkisd boat that casued the problem

For what reason?

the Turks are not known as humanitarians they are killing kurds for goodness sake!

[/b]

Oh, so you are stating that the purpose of the 'mission' was also political. That is well known. Nobody would deny that. It is a move designed to embarrass Israel. It isn't simply about giving aid.

One boat doesn't set off to deliver aid that will sort out the area's problems for a long time.

It is designed to publicise to problems in Gaza. Problems caused by Israel.

 

Starving people cannot run or swim they are too lethargic to move.

Think Darfur and Rwanda

But who has argued that the people in Gaza are ALL starving?

 

I see you you will be happy to contribute to a charity that builds facilities for the Children of Gaza THAT FANATICS NOT ISRAELIS BURNED DOWN! ( they do this because they do not wish the children to have a normal life - it is the fanatics fostered under the aegis of Hamas that is destroying the lives of the people of Gaza.

Am I happy to contribute to that charity? Erm...no. I am merely explaining that it is a tit for tat conflict.

The Israeli military has no concern for civilian deaths when it uses violence in Palestine.

How can talk of children not having a life because of the indoctrination and actions of Hamas when Palestinians civilians live in a society where through the inital Israeli opposition to a bi-national state and now the opposition to a sovereign palestinian state you have a situation where civilians live under the threat of violence from both the Israeli military and Palestinian militia?

 

Rubbish the Egyptians can open their crossing to their Arab brothers ANYTIME THEY LIKE! Of course they dont like because a) they don't want the troublesome Palestinians as their problem ( despite the fact that Gaza was under Egyptian rule previously)

b) because they do an extremely good trade in black market trade through the tunnel system.

Arab brothers? I think you are forgetting exactly who determines border control. It isn't the Egyptian public.

You also seem to be missing the point that Gaza is not under Egyptian jurisdiction.

 

You want to see the ME ignite its not about the Palestinians, the Arab nations coudnt give a monkeys about the Palestinians - they dont even like them! Iran wishes to take control of the ME the Palestinians and the Isrealis are both in their ways Patsies

Well yeah, you're right. But what's the relevance here?

 

The video looks pretty authentic to me peace activist dont attack soldiers with iron bars .

These were Islamic fanatics intent on causing trouble.

I don't know what to say. What a silly comment.

Do you think peace activists are total pacifists? The Israeli military boarded their boat carrying guns when they were international waters. By all means pass judgement if a ship came to Gaza loaded with weapons. But this was an unarmed crew, carrying aid, and was international waters. The Israel military invited a violent response.

 

The Palestinians have had many opportunities to have their own state .

Oh? And what stopped them?

 

They are in the main tyrannical Islamic theocracies that oppress their own people - unlike Israel which is still the only real democracy in the ME.

You think the Palestinians were living in a democratic state? Do explain how the Palestinians were benefitting from democracy.

 

It is to distract attention from their own despotic regimes and the oppression of their own people they use Israel as a scapegoat.

[/b]

Yet you have mentioned that it was Turkish groups who arranged the mission to Gaza. What despotic regimes are you referring to? But explain this point, because it has flown over my head.

[Albert Tatlock]

They should have just plonked Israel in what was half of West Germany and half of East Germany.

 

They'd have been in the EU now.

[Freggyragh]

Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East.

 

Does it have a democratic constitution?

 

No. Israel has never agreed on a written constitution because the religious zealots insist that the Torah is the one and only supreme law.

 

Does it have clearly defined borders?

 

Israel is a state without defined borders (because of the settlements, if they were defined a large part would be polka dots). Of the 10.6 million people that live in the territories controlled by the Israeli State, only 5.3 million are citizens.

 

All those living within the states borders are entitled to citizenship?

 

No. Immigration law is based on religious discrimination. Citizenship is automatic for immigrants accepted as Jewish, others must apply for naturalisation.

 

Citizens enjoy freedom of religion?

 

Citizens carry identity cards stating the holders religion in bold type on the front.

 

Free speech?

 

Political parties and newspapers may be banned if "its objectives or actions, expressly or by implication, include ... negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. In practice, that means that parties that call for equality or non-discrimination can, and have been made illegal.

 

Property rights?

 

425 out of 429 land development zones are reserved for use by Jewish organizations.

 

Equal access to state funded services?

 

Many public services (eg; schools, hospitals) are reserved for citizens (and their relatives) who have completed military service. Jewish Yeshiva students are granted exception, but 90% of the muslim population are not accepted into the military.

 

Equal treatment of minorities?

 

100 Arab villages have been rezoned as agricultural land, no other planning permission of any kind may be granted on this land, this includes the building, or replacing of schools, hospitals and housing.

 

Equality under the law?

 

Human rights record?

 

Respect for international law?

 

etc, etc.

 

I can't think of any democratic values that the State of Israel upholds. Because religious/ethnic discrimination is fundamental to how the Israeli state functions, you cannot claim Israel as a 'real democracy'. In fact, Israel's blockade of Gaza is in itself an attack on democracy, as it was instigated as retaliation against the results of the Palestinian Authority elections.

[acorn]

Let me just get this straight: a flotilla of ships is in international waters when it is attacked by Israeli commandos.

As is the right of any vessel in that situation, it resists a hostile boarding in international waters.

Israel then tries to declare that the violence should be blamed on those who resisted the illegal boarding.

 

I'm sure that Rog (in the finest tradition of Israeli spin doctors) will put a different slant on this, but the fact is that Israel seems hell-bent on losing the few friends it has left in the international community.

 

Let me get this straight

A bunch of 'peace' activists mainly of Turkish nationality decide to take 'aid ' to the beleaguered Palestinians.

10,000 tonnes of aid to be exact .

This it seemed needed 700 people to deliver.

 

Now bearing in mind that the Turks are at present bombing the bejasus out of the Kurds ( who would like their own state)

How would they feel if a bunch of Israelis headed a flotilla of humanitarian 'aid' to the kurds.

 

Also Gaza is not blockaded.

15000 tonnes of aid goes through EVERY WEEK!

 

Look at the TV there are healthy lively youngsters running about - no one is starving!

Sick people are treated in Israeli hospitals the same as any other patient.

They have just built an Olympic sized swimming pool there.

Yet the Palestinians funded by the gullible west carries on its old song of grievance and victimhood.

More damage is done to its people by the fanatics that flourish under the Hamas government ( they burned down a childrens home a couple of weeks back - cant have the kiddies having fun - anyway it was only funded by the UNWRA people - they will give us another!

Also Egypt has the same border restrictions - blockade ( yet no one mentions this) and only yesterday decided to open them for a while.

There is a crossing at Rafah they dont have to go through Israel

 

The entire exercise is so obviously engineered from start to finish.

Firstly the well organized demonstrations in Turkey

Everyone correctly turned out with appropriate anti Israeli headbands and piles of Israeli flags for the burning of.

Now tell me who has stacks of Israeli flags all ready for burning in the streets?

 

Turkey has obviously allied itself with Iran and intends to ignite the Middle East.

There is no other reason for such transparent provocation.

The Turkish 'humanitarian ' group has connections with Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

All the public 'outrage' again is so biased against Israel.

Where is the outrage for the Kurds whom the Turks are bombing?

The outrage for China - who occupies Tibet

For Darfur where hundreds die everyday - not for want of spices or plastic toys but for want of food.

Not only that but they being raped and murdered by the Islamic regime there - where is the world outrage?

 

But hey ho this is all so boring much more fashionable to don a checkered khafiah and look the part!

 

The gullible liberal lefties in the west has fell for this hook line and sinker

 

 

 

 

From which right wing loony web site did you copy that?

 

One thing is for sure you didn't write it yourself.

[bellyup]

Let me just get this straight: a flotilla of ships is in international waters when it is attacked by Israeli commandos.

As is the right of any vessel in that situation, it resists a hostile boarding in international waters.

Israel then tries to declare that the violence should be blamed on those who resisted the illegal boarding.

 

I'm sure that Rog (in the finest tradition of Israeli spin doctors) will put a different slant on this, but the fact is that Israel seems hell-bent on losing the few friends it has left in the international community.

 

Let me get this straight

A bunch of 'peace' activists mainly of Turkish nationality decide to take 'aid ' to the beleaguered Palestinians.

10,000 tonnes of aid to be exact .

This it seemed needed 700 people to deliver.

 

Now bearing in mind that the Turks are at present bombing the bejasus out of the Kurds ( who would like their own state)

How would they feel if a bunch of Israelis headed a flotilla of humanitarian 'aid' to the kurds.

 

Also Gaza is not blockaded.

15000 tonnes of aid goes through EVERY WEEK!

 

Look at the TV there are healthy lively youngsters running about - no one is starving!

Sick people are treated in Israeli hospitals the same as any other patient.

They have just built an Olympic sized swimming pool there.

Yet the Palestinians funded by the gullible west carries on its old song of grievance and victimhood.

More damage is done to its people by the fanatics that flourish under the Hamas government ( they burned down a childrens home a couple of weeks back - cant have the kiddies having fun - anyway it was only funded by the UNWRA people - they will give us another!

Also Egypt has the same border restrictions - blockade ( yet no one mentions this) and only yesterday decided to open them for a while.

There is a crossing at Rafah they dont have to go through Israel

 

The entire exercise is so obviously engineered from start to finish.

Firstly the well organized demonstrations in Turkey

Everyone correctly turned out with appropriate anti Israeli headbands and piles of Israeli flags for the burning of.

Now tell me who has stacks of Israeli flags all ready for burning in the streets?

 

Turkey has obviously allied itself with Iran and intends to ignite the Middle East.

There is no other reason for such transparent provocation.

The Turkish 'humanitarian ' group has connections with Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

All the public 'outrage' again is so biased against Israel.

Where is the outrage for the Kurds whom the Turks are bombing?

The outrage for China - who occupies Tibet

For Darfur where hundreds die everyday - not for want of spices or plastic toys but for want of food.

Not only that but they being raped and murdered by the Islamic regime there - where is the world outrage?

 

But hey ho this is all so boring much more fashionable to don a checkered khafiah and look the part!

 

The gullible liberal lefties in the west has fell for this hook line and sinker

 

 

 

 

From which right wing loony web site did you copy that?

 

One thing is for sure you didn't write it yourself.

 

 

EVERY LAST WORD

 

If you cant string two word together that is your problem

 

If having common sense is right wing I would rather be right wing than stupid and gullible left wing nutters

 

Whatexactly have Palestinians offered to the world?

 

Other than terrorism of course.

 

Israel has given the world the most advances in both medicine and computer technology so have a think which will you miss first!

[bellyup]

Its 10,000 tonnes less than goes into Gaza from Isreal EVERYWEEK.

700 people why ?

What are they going to do?

What does it cost to transport and feed them on the boat ?

Wouldnt it be better to actually transport more aid to the palestinians if that is the intention?

Who pays for the passage and keep of these 700?

Answe the Turks it was a turkisd boat that casued the problem

For what reason?

the Turks are not known as humanitarians they are killing kurds for goodness sake!

[/b]

 

 

 

Oh, so you are stating that the purpose of the 'mission' was also political. That is well known. Nobody would deny that. It is a move designed to embarrass Israel. It isn't simply about giving aid.

One boat doesn't set off to deliver aid that will sort out the area's problems for a long time.

It is designed to publicise to problems in Gaza. Problems caused by Israel.

 

Right so its not just about giving aid ?

Funny all the 'peace provokists say it was - you cant have it both ways.

Still we know that a paltry 10000 tonnes and 700 surplus to requirement passengers doesnt sound like an aid run.

Its was a move to embarrass Israel?.

No it was a move to provoke Israel by an Islamic group that has contacts to Hamas and hebollah (IHH)

The Turks are not interested in humanitarian aid - as i said they are bombing the kurds who are in exactly the position of the Palestinians - not giving them aid are they?

Iran wishes to ignite the ME now it has co opted Turkey who are peeved because we have dilly dallied in letting them into the EU

Do we want these people in the EU?

These flag burning fanatics? Make your own judgment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Starving people cannot run or swim they are too lethargic to move.

Think Darfur and Rwanda

But who has argued that the people in Gaza are ALL starving?

 

 

Again you cant have it all ways they are either starving or they are not.

And everyone knows they are not - just look at any news report on the TV - they are all well fed and healthy - cared for in Israeli hospitals when they are ill.

I see you you will be happy to contribute to a charity that builds facilities for the Children of Gaza THAT FANATICS NOT ISRAELIS BURNED DOWN! ( they do this because they do not wish the children to have a normal life - it is the fanatics fostered under the aegis of Hamas that is destroying the lives of the people of Gaza.

Am I happy to contribute to that charity? Erm...no. I am merely explaining that it is a tit for tat conflict.

The Israeli military has no concern for civilian deaths when it uses violence in Palestine.

How can talk of children not having a life because of the indoctrination and actions of Hamas when Palestinians civilians live in a society where through the inital Israeli opposition to a bi-national state and now the opposition to a sovereign palestinian state you have a situation where civilians live under the threat of violence from both the Israeli military and Palestinian militia?

They only have to stop firing rockets at Israel and there will be peace.

This incident has been designed to derail the latest PEACE TALKS. There is ALWAYS and incident to derail peace talks because Hamas does not want peace it wants the DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL . It makes no secret of this it is in its charter.

 

 

Rubbish the Egyptians can open their crossing to their Arab brothers ANYTIME THEY LIKE! Of course they dont like because a) they don't want the troublesome Palestinians as their problem ( despite the fact that Gaza was under Egyptian rule previously)

b) because they do an extremely good trade in black market trade through the tunnel system.

Arab brothers? I think you are forgetting exactly who determines border control. It isn't the Egyptian public.

You also seem to be missing the point that Gaza is not under Egyptian jurisdiction.

 

Hello there is an Egyptian crossing the RAFAH crossing and yes it is controlled by the EGYPTIANS by the Egyptian GOVERNMENT the same as any other government . Dont you understand its the Egyptian crossing theirs to controls as they will.

They have also built a security wall to keep the Gazaans out. They are afraid of Hamas and its power if too many palestinians get into Egypt - Hamas is an off shoot of the Muslim Brotherhood a powerful and fanatical political force in Egypt.

 

You want to see the ME ignite its not about the Palestinians, the Arab nations couldn't give a monkeys about the Palestinians - they dont even like them! Iran wishes to take control of the ME the Palestinians and the Isrealis are both in their ways Patsies

Well yeah, you're right. But what's the relevance here?

 

The relevance is its NOT ABOUT AID ( some poor do gooders on board probably think that it is)

its not about breaking the blockade of Gaza.

Its about destabilizing the region so that Iran and its co powers can gain full control over the entire ME.

 

 

 

The video looks pretty authentic to me peace activist dont attack soldiers with iron bars .

These were Islamic fanatics intent on causing trouble.

I don't know what to say. What a silly comment.

Do you think peace activists are total pacifists?

 

Yes that is what they are saying they are ( we can tell from the video they these were not.) they were hard line Islamist fanatics prepared for fight and prepared to die and take the Israelis with them.

 

The Israeli military boarded their boat carrying guns when they were international waters. By all means pass judgement if a ship came to Gaza loaded with weapons. But this was an unarmed crew, carrying aid, and was international waters. The Israel military invited a violent response.

 

No they didnt 5 ships came in without a problem in peace this one was prepared to fight and provoke an incident.

 

The Palestinians have had many opportunities to have their own state .

Oh? And what stopped them?

 

 

Their leaders.

They could have had a state from day one in 1948 they were offered it by the League of Nations - exactly like Israel

but instead chose to declare war ( with six other arab countries on the new state.

they could have had a state in 2000 Barak offered them 93% of everything they wanted and unbelievably they turned it down and chose intifada and death and suffering for their people.

 

They are in the main tyrannical Islamic theocracies that oppress their own people - unlike Israel which is still the only real democracy in the ME.

You think the Palestinians were living in a democratic state? Do explain how the Palestinians were benefitting from democracy.

 

The palestinians in Gaza are not - although they democratically elected Hamas and have lived to rue it.

they are subject to increasingly harsh rules against women and Hamas uses women and children as human shields.

Israeli Arabs who live in Israel have exactly the same rights as any other Israeli. there are Arab Israelis in the Knesset and Israel is the only country in the ME where women - Arab women have exactly the same rights as anyone else.

 

 

 

 

It is to distract attention from their own despotic regimes and the oppression of their own people they use Israel as a scapegoat.

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Yet you have mentioned that it was Turkish groups who arranged the mission to Gaza. What despotic regimes are you referring to? But explain this point, because it has flown over my head.

 

 

Iran - hangs gays and minors from cranes is ruled by a theocracy women are second class citizens.

they have no vote

Turkey while more developed is killing kurds and women are subject to Islamic law. The group involved in the flotilla were hard liners with contacts to Hezbollah and Hamas Militants these are fanatical Islamic terrorist groups

All the rest of the ME countries Syria Lebanon are under harsh dictatorships the leaders are not democratically elected by the people.

Saudi Arabia - practices gender apartheid and violates most humans rights but its wealthy rulers are adept at keeping the people oppressed and all these countries use Israel as a distraction to keep the people from complaining about their excesses.

Why do you think that not one bar Jordan has given the Palestinian refugees citizenship?

The lands of Arabia are vast plenty of room for a few more brother Arabs but in 60 years they have not done this.

There are no other 60 year old refugees in the entire world !

Jordan is an exception to this in that it is ruled by a forward thinking ( half English ) king who has made peace with Israel and all the Palestinian who were refugees there have were given citizenship decades ago.

Consequently Jordan has done well with with trade agreements and joint industrial development with Israel