Israeli 'intervention'

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I dont care if you dont believe me but i understand too many words may be hard for you to understand so heres a nice amusing little you tube saying why you should definitely boycott Isreal and its products enjoy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c

But what does a fucking boycott of Israeli stuff have to do with anything?

[bellyup]

I dont care if you dont believe me but i understand too many words may be hard for you to understand so heres a nice amusing little you tube saying why you should definitely boycott Isreal and its products enjoy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c

 

 

I can cope with big words, same as I can recognize right wing nutters.

 

Incidentally are you Rog in disguise? On second thoughts probably not, Rog may well be yet another right wing nutter but at least he can spell and use grammar correctly. Neither does he cut and paste and pretend it's his own work.

 

 

What a sad little post .

No I am not Rog - although he sounds a regular kind of guy.

You carry on thinking that people cant be articulate without the cut and paste option.

I am sure it suits you down tot he ground.

Now why dont you run along and play with yourself playstation and leave debate to the grown ups.

[bellyup]

I dont care if you dont believe me but i understand too many words may be hard for you to understand so heres a nice amusing little you tube saying why you should definitely boycott Isreal and its products enjoy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c

But what does a fucking boycott of Israeli stuff have to do with anything?

 

 

 

Absolutely sweet FA but it amuses those who cant follow more than two sentences.

 

 

Did you like the we conned the world song?

 

For those who may have missed it

 

[bellyup]

bellyup.

 

 

 

At the time of this interview, shortly after his release from captivity, he had not seen any of the Israeli propaganda videos.

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/2010/06/201063123021327499.html

 

Which is a bit unfortunate for him because his account seems to reinforce the truth of the Israeli videos - they were not propaganda - that is the sound bite answer to anything these days.

 

He said that the 'peaceful activists' were cutting iron bars from the ship - before the Israelis boarded and he said he saw them beating soldiers on the ground.

We have all seen the truth of that!

 

And goodness what a wimp - complaining that the Israels didn't provide hot water for his shower and only gave him frozen bread.

 

What did he expect a 5* hotel?

[bellyup]

 

 

The Six-Day War of June 1967 resulted in the the capture of East Jerusalem and other territories of the Biblical Land of Israel.

 

A war they did not initiate East Jerusalem was at that time held by Jordan.

Jordan invaded Isreal - Isreal had no hostility to Jordan at all.

Only after they lost the area did they cede it to the Palestinians.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Bellyup - you have to be trolling. You seem to be ignoring the issues that make this incident so outrageous and keep babbling on about stuff that is already known and accepted.

[bellyup]

Bellyup - you have to be trolling. You seem to be ignoring the issues that make this incident so outrageous and keep babbling on about stuff that is already known and accepted.

 

So because an opinion differs from that of yourself it has to be trolling?

 

The issues that make this incident so outrageous is the demonisation of Israel.

People concentrating on Israel to the detriment of true humanitarian disasters such as Darfur , the Niger, Zimbabwe

or where people are being oppressed and killed by the hundreds and thousands - Darfur - genocide- the Kurds in Iraq being bombed by the very same Turks who in an act of the utmost hypocrisy are claiming to support the Palestinians !

 

 

Accepted by whom?

The left wing liberals who have absolutely no idea of the bigger picture and issues involved?

They are being duped by fundamentalist powers who look at liberal values as weakness not to be admired but to be exploited.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I assume that you are trolling, not simply because you have a different view, but because it is so ridiculous that to you'd have to be a moron to take it seriously.

 

Yes, it is political move by the activists to portray Israel in a bad light. That's the point!

Israel is being demonised because it has reacted to something in such a way to draw international condemnation and outrage. This is all in response to how Israel deals with the Palestinian issue and how it has dealt with it since the wrongful creation of a Jewish state.

 

And yes, people concentrate on Israel and Palestinian issue more than Darfur and Zimbabwe. But that is because the people in these regions are unimportant, or rather they are considered as such. They're black and that's Africa. Not much for the media or governments to give a shit about unfortunately.

Darfur has never been given much attention, regardless of the issues in Israel. It is not of interest.

By all means question why nothing has been done about Darfur and that the issue needs publicising more. And also ask that the Sudanese government be condemned to a greater extent that it has.

 

But although the problems in Africa are more shocking from a humanitarian perspective, that does not mean the situation in Gaza is rosy, or even acceptable. And that's the point.

 

This is a specific issue. A vessel getting boarded in international waters by Israeli commandos. That in itself is outrageous. Coercion and force was used against the crew of this vessel. Understandably they responded with violence. Why do you find this disagreeable?

 

As for the Turks, this vessel was not sent by the Turkish government. Although Kurds have been treated disgustingly by the Turkish military and government, you seem to be making this argument that it is unfair to demonise Israel. Why not demonise them both?

 

They are being duped by fundamentalist powers who look at liberal values as weakness not to be admired but to be exploited.

What is the result of this duping? That people START to realise that Israel needs to change in how it deals with the Palestinains issue?

 

Do you honestly believe that Israel has done good for the Palestinians?

[jimbms]

The Six-Day War of June 1967 resulted in the the capture of East Jerusalem and other territories of the Biblical Land of Israel.

 

A war they did not initiate East Jerusalem was at that time held by Jordan.

Jordan invaded Isreal - Isreal had no hostility to Jordan at all.

Only after they lost the area did they cede it to the Palestinians.

 

So why did they invade Egypt as well? It appears you have been chewing supposatarys again

[bellyup]

I assume that you are trolling, not simply because you have a different view, but because it is so ridiculous that to you'd have to be a moron to take it seriously.

 

 

Its a well known fact that when one has a weak argument you attack the poster not the post.

Its called Ad Hominmen.

Its a dead give away .

So if you wish to be taken seriously its best to drop the silly epithets things aren't ridiculous just because you happen to think so!

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is political move by the activists to portray Israel in a bad light. That's the point!

 

So you admit that it wasn't a humanitarian move at all just a political set up?

But it hasn't succeeded it has failed

The activists have been shown up in their true colours !

They were offered two different options where they could unladen their cargo they refused both.

6 ships came in peacefully - o dear things were not going to plan so the Turkish ship - the one filled not with softly western liberals but Turkish fundamentalist hard liners had to instigate the provocation.

Why do you want to portray Israel in a bad light ?

What other country sends aid to its enemies and treats them freely in its hospitals?

By doing so you tacitly support Hamas and Hezbollah both radical fundamentalist terrorist groups.

People who have no qualms about murdering innocent people not just in Israel but throughout the western world.

Hamas is using the people of Gaza as human shields - isn't this against their human rights?

It will not stop firing rockets on Israeli citizens therefore it must expect retribution any country has the right to defend itself.

It is making the woman of Gaza submit to a Taliban style sharia law.

Isn't this against all their human rights that every liberal leftie should be against?

 

Israel is being demonised because it has reacted to something in such a way to draw international condemnation and outrage. This is all in response to how Israel deals with the Palestinian issue and how it has dealt with it since the wrongful creation of a Jewish state.

 

How about the wrongful creation of Jordan, Iraq , Syria and Lebanon?

These are all created states.Israel has the same right to exist as any of these places

There was no Palestine as a nation it was all under the Ottoman empire ( and it looks like the Turks might be reconsidering getting it back)

Why should Israel have to deal with the Palestinian issue . It does not control the Gaza.

The Gaza was under Egyptian control - and Egjpt wisely refused to have it back IT doesnt want the Palestinian problem in ITS lap.

Jordan was obliges to drive out the Palestinians under Yasser arafat when they tried to take over its country and assassinate the late King Hussain.

 

And yes, people concentrate on Israel and Palestinian issue more than Darfur and Zimbabwe. But that is because the people in these regions are unimportant, or rather they are considered as such. They're black and that's Africa. Not much for the media or governments to give a shit about unfortunately.

 

This does not say much for the PEACE activists!

Your remark re skin coulour is offensive to say the least.

Why are the people in these regions of less importance than the Palestinians?

Why is it OK to allow the Janjaweed Islamic terrorists rape and murder the people of Darfur

Could it be that any activists sailing to Africa will be dispatched without mercy ( no problems about hot showers there)

So what governments are you talking about?

On the contrary Africa is rich in resources and Israel has nothing - no oil no diamond just the tenacity and spirit of its people.

Why is Palestine so important to the world?

What have the Palestinians given to the world apart from TERRORISM?

 

Darfur has never been given much attention, regardless of the issues in Israel. It is not of interest.

 

Why?

Can you support your statement with facts?

Are'nt the Darfurians cute enough ?

Are they less deserving than the Palestinians ( who have had BILLIONS in aid for the last 60 years)

Tell me why people who are NOT starving,

Do sweet FA for the world except cause trouble

Who vote in a bunch of terrorists to govern them ?

Tell me why are they of more value than the people of Dafur?

 

 

By all means question why nothing has been done about Darfur and that the issue needs publicising more. And also ask that the Sudanese government be condemned to a greater extent that it has.

 

Why dont you ask?

What doesn't the outraged international community ask?

Why doesn't the UN ask?

Instead they spend an inordinate and DISPROPORTIONATE time concentrating on Israel

 

 

But although the problems in Africa are more shocking from a humanitarian perspective, that does not mean the situation in Gaza is rosy, or even acceptable. And that's the point.

 

No its not rosy but they only have themselves to blame .

They have refused the offers of peace time after time and have taken the path of death and suffering fro their people.

they could make peace and live

They prefer to provoke their neighbour and let their people take the brunt.

they are not dying from lack of jam coke or walkers crisps.

They are in fact no worse and a great deal better off than many poor Arabs who live in the middle East.

if you go to Syria or Jordan especially in the rural areas you will see scenarios of great poverty.

 

 

 

 

This is a specific issue. A vessel getting boarded in international waters by Israeli commandos. That in itself is outrageous.

 

well actually no its not.

A country has the right to search any ships that may be bringing in weapons to do it harm.

We did it in the Falklands and the Americans did it in the time of the Cuban crisis.

 

Coercion and force was used against the crew of this vessel. Understandably they responded with violence. Why do you find this disagreeable?

 

Why would PEACE activists met soldiers by beating them with iron bars?

The other 6 ships reacted with non violence the Isrealis fully expected this one to do so too .

Otherwise they would not have allowed themselves to be caught so un prepared.

 

As for the Turks, this vessel was not sent by the Turkish government. Although Kurds have been treated disgustingly by the Turkish military and government, you seem to be making this argument that it is unfair to demonise Israel. Why not demonise them both?

 

 

It was sent by IHH a group that has close contacts with Hamas and Hezballah - these are terrorist groups.

Surely you can see the irony and hypocrisy that people who are bombing and killing Kurds for wanting a homeland are supposedly supporting the Palestinians?

What about the poor Kurds back home?

 

 

 

What is the result of this duping? That people START to realise that Israel needs to change in how it deals with the Palestinains issue?

Do you honestly believe that Israel has done good for the Palestinians?

 

I believe that Israel has treated the Palestinians better than they are treated in any other Arab country bar Jordan.

The Palestinians had the chance to go forward should to shoulder with Israel and share in their prosperity.

Israeli Arabs have a good life living in Israel they have the same rights as anyone else.

 

The palestinians only have to make peace but they will not do that because they do not want peace.

 

What evidence have the Palestinians EVER GIVEN TO THE WORLD THAT THEY WANT PEACE?

 

THEY WANT THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL

 

It is in their charter and there will be no peace while they continue towards this goal.

 

 

[slinkydevil]

Bellyup is Rog and I claim my £5 (which I'll wisely invest of course).

[bellyup]

The Six-Day War of June 1967 resulted in the the capture of East Jerusalem and other territories of the Biblical Land of Israel.

 

A war they did not initiate East Jerusalem was at that time held by Jordan.

Jordan invaded Isreal - Isreal had no hostility to Jordan at all.

Only after they lost the area did they cede it to the Palestinians.

 

So why did they invade Egypt as well? It appears you have been chewing supposatarys again

 

It might have been the tiny fact that Nasser had amassed an army of over 100,000 men on the borders of Israel and had sent some 55,000 soldiers to Jordan.

It was an upsurge in Arab nationalism.

Despite the overwhelming difference in numbers the Egyptians proved a disaster in battle and were completely routed by the superior air power of the Isrealis.

Jordan was actually reluctant to enter in and Israel did not want a war on so many fronts and appealed to King Hussain not to enter the fray.

As he so often did King Hussain made the wrong decision bombed Israel who retaliated and Jordan lost the West Bank.

The Isrealis could 'nt believe their luck!

 

And as the saying goes they say To the winners go the spoils.

[Evil Goblin]

After reading this (and many other threads on MF) how the hell do we expect the Israelis and the Palestinians to kiss and make-up?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

No, it succeeded. It tested the Israeli seriousness as to its wrongful blockade. The Israeli government has no good justification to offer options. It shouldn't be blockading in the first place.

And again, it was the Israeli's who instigated a confrontation and provoked the situation. They made demands to the crew of these ships.

 

 

By doing so you tacitly support Hamas and Hezbollah both radical fundamentalist terrorist groups.

Absolute rubbish. Support for the Palestinians in thinking that they would do better to remove themselves from Israeli control and have their own sovereign state is not an endorsement of Hamas or Hazbollah. Nor does it equate to support for these groups.

 

People who have no qualms about murdering innocent people not just in Israel but throughout the western world.

Hamas is using the people of Gaza as human shields - isn't this against their human rights?

It will not stop firing rockets on Israeli citizens therefore it must expect retribution any country has the right to defend itself.

It is making the woman of Gaza submit to a Taliban style sharia law.

Isn't this against all their human rights that every liberal leftie should be against?

The Israeli government has no qualms about the deaths of Palestinians or Lebanese civilians.

And what are wittering on about with talk of human rights? You think Israeli upholds human rights in its historic treatment of Palestinians as second-class citizens and denying them any of the democratic elements of government that the Jewish have enjoyed?

 

You seem to spending too much time giving attention to what nature of a Palestinian state might be and not recognising that regardless of its construct it is something that the Palestinians were entitled to a long time ago and which they still want.

 

How about the wrongful creation of Jordan, Iraq , Syria and Lebanon?

These are all created states.Israel has the same right to exist as any of these places

There was no Palestine as a nation it was all under the Ottoman empire ( and it looks like the Turks might be reconsidering getting it back)

Why should Israel have to deal with the Palestinian issue . It does not control the Gaza.

The Gaza was under Egyptian control - and Egjpt wisely refused to have it back IT doesnt want the Palestinian problem in ITS lap.

Jordan was obliges to drive out the Palestinians under Yasser arafat when they tried to take over its country and assassinate the late King Hussain.

What about the wrongful of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon? I have to first ask what you mean by 'wrong' in those particular instances.

But Israel didn't have the right to exist in the 1940s. There was nothing right about the creation of a purely Jewish state when much of the population was Arab.

There was no Palestine as a nation. But nor was there an Israel. And up until the 1970s Palestinian nationalism was not of a great potency. It is has only been through resistance of the Jewish state to altering itself to be a bi-national state that things changed.

Israel HAS to deal with the Palestinian issue while it occupies Palestinian land, while it resists the creation of Palestinian state, while it will only accept an Palestinian state which Israeli can have economic control over.

 

This does not say much for the PEACE activists!

Your remark re skin coulour is offensive to say the least.

Why are the people in these regions of less importance than the Palestinians?

Why is it OK to allow the Janjaweed Islamic terrorists rape and murder the people of Darfur

Please don't use 're'. It is annoying and lazy in the middle of a sentence. Anyway...why do you find it offensive. I am not making claims that the lives of these people are unimportant based on my evaluation on the worth of life.

But I'm afraid that the poor black people of Africa are not considered important from point of view of government's, businesses, and the media. For one thing they are economically worthless and are not located in strategic or economically important regions. And I am afraid to say that in the grand scheme of attributing worth to lives black Africans are quite low down on the hierarchy of value and interest.

Western people do have an unfortunate habit of forgetting their moral principles when it comes to people who are brown, or worse black.

 

Israel is a military power in the region. It sits in a very strategic location in the Middle East and has a great deal of influence over the military developments of nearby countries.

 

Why?

Can you support your statement with facts?

Already explained why.

Are'nt the Darfurians cute enough ?

Clearly they are not. Probably because they are relatively unknown to begin with, economically unimportant, black and African, as explained.

Are they less deserving than the Palestinians ( who have had BILLIONS in aid for the last 60 years)

And why have they had this aid? Because they are just poor at looking after themselves?

Tell me why people who are NOT starving,

Do sweet FA for the world except cause trouble

Why do you think they have caused trouble? More than any other question I would want that answering.

Who vote in a bunch of terrorists to govern them ?

Ask yourself why they would want terrorists as governors. What do Hamas offer and why would it appear good for the Palestinians?

 

Why dont you ask?

What doesn't the outraged international community ask?

Why doesn't the UN ask?

Instead they spend an inordinate and DISPROPORTIONATE time concentrating on Israel

Never mind me. I have a very good idea why. Why don't you start looking into why attention is not given to particular problems in other areas of the world. It would be better to do this rather than portraying the situation in Palestinian as being acceptable and simply down to Muslims wanting to cause trouble.

 

No its not rosy but they only have themselves to blame .

They have refused the offers of peace time after time and have taken the path of death and suffering fro their people.

they could make peace and live

They prefer to provoke their neighbour and let their people take the brunt.

they are not dying from lack of jam coke or walkers crisps.

They are in fact no worse and a great deal better off than many poor Arabs who live in the middle East.

if you go to Syria or Jordan especially in the rural areas you will see scenarios of great poverty.

This is where I want to resort to the ad hominem. Make and peace and live? The Palestinians want control over their lands and want a nation that will be economically viable. The Israeli government want make any acceptable offers. It has been about sixty years and still Israel won't offer anything decent. Through this time the Palestinians have lived as second class citizens in a Jewish state.

Palestinians chose to resort to terrorism, they are in the weaker position militarily as wrong as terrorism might be. But some they see it as the only way to gain leverage. And the Israeli's have responded with terrorism of their own. Now it is tit for tat. Too late for peace unless the Israeli government offer something acceptable.

 

well actually no its not.

A country has the right to search any ships that may be bringing in weapons to do it harm.

We did it in the Falklands and the Americans did it in the time of the Cuban crisis.

No it isn't.

 

The Falklands was a conflict between two nations. During the Cuban Missile Crisis it was something that the Americans would not legally allowed to do but did anyway. It is still considered to be highly contentious.

 

Why would PEACE activists met soldiers by beating them with iron bars?

The other 6 ships reacted with non violence the Isrealis fully expected this one to do so too .

Otherwise they would not have allowed themselves to be caught so un prepared.

Going round in circles!

The Israelis should not have been there! It doesn't matter what peace activists did in retaliation for a boarding. It doesn't matter that one ship did not comply.

 

It was sent by IHH a group that has close contacts with Hamas and Hezballah - these are terrorist groups.

Surely you can see the irony and hypocrisy that people who are bombing and killing Kurds for wanting a homeland are supposedly supporting the Palestinians?

What about the poor Kurds back home?

So what if Hamas or Hezbollah are terrorists in considering this matter. The Israeli government is a terrorist organisation. The irony isn't relevant. Again, highlight the irony and criticise the behaviour of these organisation in relation to their treatment of Kurds. But it still doesn't mean the situation for the Palestinians is acceptable.

 

The Palestinians had the chance to go forward should to shoulder with Israel and share in their prosperity.

You're joking right?

[jimbms]

Shall we look at exactly what Israel has done?

 

1. They have made air strikes that were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East namely Gaza. These Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.

 

2. It has ignored its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War dated 12th August 1949, under which The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are defined under international law as "protected persons".

 

3. on the 16th September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists sealed off and entered the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500. The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, since Israel's Kahan Commission did not have a judicial mandate and was not backed up by legal force. This in defiance of a UN ruling and mandate.

 

4. In April 2002 Israel attacked the civilian refugee camp of Jenin and massacred civilians, many by sealing them in their homes and bulldozing the houses, all this because there was terrorist activity and rockets fired from the area, but the Israeli forces instead of attacking these decided instead to murder women and children.

 

When you look under international law and the Geneva convention it becomes obvious Israel are guilty on many accounts of war crimes and genocide, and if you look at it percentage wise then Israel is is one of the worst instigators of genocide in modern history.