Israeli 'intervention'

[bellyup]

@ LVD

The palestinians are not ruled by Israel they are ruled by Hamas.

 

They are not under Israeli control if they were they would not be able to fire rockets at civilians

 

Palestinians are not citizens of Israel.

They have a democratically elected government they elected Hamas.

Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel and have exactly the same rights as Israeli citizens

they have seats in the Knesset.

Hamas have the Gaza and have had BILLIONS in aid over decades what have they done with it?

Have they used it for the good of the Palestinian people?

We know that much has gone to the leaders Yasser Arafat left millions to his wife and child.

 

There was no Israel there was no Jordan there was no Iraq what there was the British Mandate.

The entire area had been under the power of the Ottoman Turks who had found themselves on the wrong side - the losing side in two world wars.

The British partitioned the land under their mandate.

Most went to Trans Jordan ( now Jordan ) a small amount went to make up the state of Israel ( 12% of this land had already been purchased by the Zionists over the years from the Ottoman Turks.)

The Arabs there were not called Palestinians inf act and ironically the first Jewish settlers were known as Palestinians until the foundation of the State of Israel when they became known as Isrealis.

There was no land of Palestine it is a vast area covering the lands of Arabia and was mainly occupied by wandering Bedouin tribes who recognize no borders.

The Palestinians of today at first called themselves South Syrians.

The Palestinians have total authority over Gaza - there are no Isrealis there and what have they done with it?

 

 

Why are the people in these regions of less importance than the Palestinians?

Why is it OK to allow the Janjaweed Islamic terrorists rape and murder the people of Darfur.

 

I am not making claims that the lives of these people are unimportant based on my evaluation on the worth of life.

But I'm afraid that the poor black people of Africa are not considered important from point of view of government's, businesses, and the media.

 

Yes so you say but you give no facts at all to support these statements.

And it may have escaped your notice that the Chinese - astute business men all do not share your thoughts and think Africa very important.

 

For one thing they are economically worthless and are not located in strategic or economically important regions.

 

........let me help you Darfur is in the Sudan

The major export of Sudan is OIL.

Sudan although the people are starving and oppressed is a fertile country but exports most of its produce to the ME ie Saudi Arabia .

The major export of Palestine is nothing - the land has no oil and no resources ditto Israel.

They have built a land with the ingenuity and expertise of their people.

And I am afraid to say that in the grand scheme of attributing worth to lives black Africans are quite low down on the hierarchy of value and interest.

 

What an extraordinarily thing to say !

So where do the Palestinians come on your colour richter scale ?

Some are dark skinned Mediterranean people some are pale skinned with blue eyes or do you divide that too?

Some on else used to do this...............

 

 

 

Western people do have an unfortunate habit of forgetting their moral principles when it comes to people who are brown, or worse black.

 

 

So according to your lights human rights people only chose light skinned Palestinians as deserving of aid and attention as opposed to black Africans?

 

Israel is a military power in the region. It sits in a very strategic location in the Middle East and has a great deal of influence over the military developments of nearby countries.

 

No it doesn't.

The surrounding countries are sovereign nations and do what they like.

Israel had nothing to do with the Iraq- Iran war

Israel had nothing to do with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait

It has nothing to do with unrest in the Yemen

Israeli s military power is used to defend itself.

 

 

Already explained why.

 

No you haven't you have made a series of erroneous statements unsupported by facts.

 

 

Are'nt the Darfurians cute enough ?

 

 

Clearly they are not. Probably because they are relatively unknown to begin with, economically unimportant, black and African, as explained.

 

 

I know about them so does most of the CARING WORLD.

Those who dont rush to buy a fashionable Khafiah and get a freebie cruise on the Med.

Of course the Janjaweed are unreasonable and terrifying and will chop up an aid activist before breakfast .

 

Are they less deserving than the Palestinians ( who have had BILLIONS in aid for the last 60 years)

 

 

And why have they had this aid? Because they are just poor at looking after themselves?

 

They have become aid dependent and it suits the Arab world to have them that way.

After all it is the gullible west who supplies the major part of that aid money ( Britain gives a Billion pounds a year)

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you think they have caused trouble? More than any other question I would want that answering.

 

Because they are ruled and indoctrinated by grievance ridden fanatics and we in the west pander to them.

Are the people in Tibet blowing up the Chinese?

Or if they are pissed of come to Europe and blow up Chinese take a ways ?

No they do not.

 

 

quote]

Ask yourself why they would want terrorists as governors. What do Hamas offer and why would it appear good for the Palestinians?

 

They made a mistake many regret it .

Hamas has a first rate PR machine but now in power it controls by threat and brute force.

 

 

 

Why dont you ask?

What doesn't the outraged international community ask?

Why doesn't the UN ask?

Instead they spend an inordinate and DISPROPORTIONATE time concentrating on Israel

 

 

Never mind me. I have a very good idea why. Why don't you start looking into why attention is not given to particular problems in other areas of the world. It would be better to do this rather than portraying the situation in Palestinian as being acceptable and simply down to Muslims wanting to cause trouble.

 

Evasive answer or rather no answer at all.

I have not portrayed the Palestinian situation as acceptable but they have in the main only themselves or their leaders to blame . they Have had ENDLESS attempts at PEACE negotiations from people all over the world.

Clinton facilitated the best off er they will ever had Barak would have given them 93% of everything they asked for and the turned it down.

 

 

 

 

No its not rosy but they only have themselves to blame .

They have refused the offers of peace time after time and have taken the path of death and suffering fro their people.

they could make peace and live

They prefer to provoke their neighbour and let their people take the brunt.

they are not dying from lack of jam coke or walkers crisps.

They are in fact no worse and a great deal better off than many poor Arabs who live in the middle East.

if you go to Syria or Jordan especially in the rural areas you will see scenarios of great poverty.

 

 

 

This is where I want to resort to the ad hominem. Make and peace and live? The Palestinians want control over their lands and want a nation that will be economically viable.

 

Hamas has total control of Gaza it is up to them to make it economically viable.

However it is difficult to do this when you are always provoking your powerful neighbours and threatening them with destruction.

 

The Israeli government want make any acceptable offers.

 

Nothing is acceptable to Hamas who DO NOT WANT PEACE they want the DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL

 

It has been about sixty years and still Israel won't offer anything decent.

 

What do you call 93% of everything they wanted?

That was nearly 10 years ago.

10 years when they could have had peace and built a nation instead they opted for intifada.

 

Through this time the Palestinians have lived as second class citizens in a Jewish state.

 

Do you actually know where Gaza is?

 

Palestinians chose to resort to terrorism, they are in the weaker position militarily as wrong as terrorism might be.

 

Right so we are weaker so we will blow up families in the Pizza parlour or kids on the school bus?

 

 

 

well actually no its not.

A country has the right to search any ships that may be bringing in weapons to do it harm.

We did it in the Falklands and the Americans did it in the time of the Cuban crisis.

 

No it isn't.

The Falklands was a conflict between two nations. During the Cuban Missile Crisis it was something that the Americans would not legally allowed to do but did anyway. It is still considered to be highly contentious.

 

Why would PEACE activists met soldiers by beating them with iron bars?

The other 6 ships reacted with non violence the Isrealis fully expected this one to do so too .

Otherwise they would not have allowed themselves to be caught so un prepared.

 

Going round in circles!

The Israelis should not have been there! It doesn't matter what peace activists did in retaliation for a boarding. It doesn't matter that one ship did not comply.

 

Every country has the right to defend its citizens and that includes blockades.

It was sent by IHH a group that has close contacts with Hamas and Hezballah - these are terrorist groups.

Surely you can see the irony and hypocrisy that people who are bombing and killing Kurds for wanting a homeland are supposedly supporting the Palestinians?

What about the poor Kurds back home?

 

 

So what if Hamas or Hezbollah are terrorists in considering this matter. The Israeli government is a terrorist organisation. The irony isn't relevant. Again, highlight the irony and criticise the behaviour of these organisation in relation to their treatment of Kurds. But it still doesn't mean the situation for the Palestinians is acceptable.

 

The Israel government is not a terrorist government.

No one has had their plane hijacked by an Israeli nor do they blow up the tubes or buses.

 

 

The Palestinians had the chance to go forward should to shoulder with Israel and share in their prosperity.

You're joking right?

 

Actually no.

Jordan and Egypt have both made treaties with Israel.

In Jordan this has led to join industrial projects that are beneficial to both parties.

Also young Jordanians and Israelis have done a lot of work together including exchange visits of children

This is the way forward .

However and sadly for the region but especially fro the Palestinians this is exactly what Hamas does not want for its people.

[pongo]

Bellyup's idignation re the Kurds is flannel. Turkey and Israel were very close military allies until very very recently. Israel supplied weapons to the Turkish military in return for use of Turkish airspace. Israel is now flirting with Greece for the military use of their airspace, according to the internet.

 

The two states solution is not ultimately going to work because Gaza and the West Bank are too small and isolated to be viable. At best two states might be a diplomatic stage towards creating a single greater non secular Palestine in which Israelis would have full democratic rights. The Israelis are beginning to seem like the Loyalists in Ireland - ultimately they must know that they will have to compromise for peace.

 

When the US stops supporting Israel, then Israel will work towards peace. That will happen when Israel is no longer strategically important or if the US decides it no longer has strategic or economic interests in that region. Or it will happen if and when it decides that other allies are equally or more important.

[bellyup]

Today the Rachel Corrie was intercepted and boarded by Israeli troops with no trouble she was escorted to Israel's Ashdod port.

 

This now makes six ships boarded without any casualties.

 

Extremist Islamic activists, looking for martyrdom, caused all the problems on the ship where real trouble occurred.

[Declan]

Bellyup, the Rachel Corrie was captured by Israel and diverted from it's destination and purpose, meaning most of the aid it is carrying won't get to the intended recipients. That there wasn't bloodshed is due to the level-headedness of the victims on this occasion, that's something to be thankful for.

 

It would have been better had that happened last week, but when Somali pirates attack a ship and it's crew defend themselves and people die. It's not the crew's fault, it's the pirates'. If Israel hadn't boarded these boats to divert them, deport their crew, and rob the aid they're delivering, no one would have died

[bellyup]

 

 

1. They have made air strikes that were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East namely Gaza. These Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.

 

 

Israel does not occupy one inch of Gaza they withdrew in 2005

It still however provides Gaza with electricity water and sewage systems.

After the Israeli withdrawal conditions in the Gaza worsened due to inter factional fighting within the PLO.

 

2. It has ignored its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War dated 12th August 1949, under which The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are defined under international law as "protected persons".

 

Israel can hardly protect them from their own rulers.

The Israeli Arabs who live in Israel have the same rights as any Israeli citizen.

Israeli Arab women have the same human rights as men.

 

3. on the 16th September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists sealed off and entered the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500.

 

The Phlangusts were Christian Lebanese not Isrealis

 

4. In April 2002 Israel attacked the civilian refugee camp of Jenin and massacred civilians, many by sealing them in their homes and bulldozing the houses, all this because there was terrorist activity and rockets fired from the area, but the Israeli forces instead of attacking these decided instead to murder women and children.

 

This is a myth there was no jenin Massacre and everyone knows it. The number of Palestinian deaths in Jenin was 52.

Around half of those, by the reckoning of the United Nations, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, were fighters. The others – somewhere between 20 and 30 civilians – were not “massacred”, but died despite the efforts of the Israel Defense Forces to minimize civilian casualties. It is not known how many of these civilians died in houses that were demolished when booby-traps set by the Palestinian militants exploded.

The Isrealis took especial care to do street searches and used loud speakers to hail the occupants of any house prior to it being demolished ( this was much more dangerous for them and 23 Israeli soldiers were killed .

There was no massacre. Even the anti Israel BBC – was obliged to discredit the story. Ditto Amnesty International

This story is now referred to as ‘The Myth of Jenin '.

 

When you look under international law and the Geneva convention it becomes obvious Israel are guilty on many accounts of war crimes and genocide, and if you look at it percentage wise then Israel is is one of the worst instigators of genocide in modern history.

 

This is an absolute lie.

 

What Israel has not done.

Israel has not blown up planes

It has not cold bloodedly murdered defenseless young athletes at the Olympic games

It does not hold its prisoners incommunicado for years with access to the Red cross against all the rules of the Genera Convention . Unlike Hamas who have kidnapped from Israel and held Gilad Shalit for over 3 years.

It does not use its people as human shields a practice the Hamas Militants do all the time against all the rules of the Genevra convention.

It does not abuse women and inflict on them harsh laws in defiance of their human rights.

 

What Israel does do.

 

It tends its enemies the people who would destroy it in its own hospitals where they are treated with same care as any other patient.

 

It has tried and still tries against all odds to make peace.

[Twitch]

Perhaps you'd have been better off keeping your money in Israel.

[bellyup]

Bellyup, the Rachel Corrie was captured by Israel and diverted from it's destination and purpose, meaning most of the aid it is carrying won't get to the intended recipients. That there wasn't bloodshed is due to the level-headedness of the victims on this occasion, that's something to be thankful for.

 

It could have gone to Egypt and unloaded its cargo there.

Actually the aid will go in it always does 15000 tonnes of it everyweek.

Although I note it is carrying wheelchairs and Hamas have already rejected one load.

Cement is only allowed in on approved Humanitarian projects .

 

 

It would have been better had that happened last week, but when Somali pirates attack a ship and it's crew defend themselves and people die. It's not the crew's fault, it's the pirates'. If Israel hadn't boarded these boats to divert them, deport their crew, and rob the aid they're delivering, no one would have died

 

6 ships came in and no one died on them.

These men were prepared to provoke an incident.

Its it a coincidence that this was the ship that was not full of liberal westerners but Islamic militants?

To compare them with Somali pirates is really not fair.

[Yoshke Pandre]

I’m a middle aged Israeli woman, living in England, and with no connections with the Isle of Mann other than being married to a Mannxman who happens to be Jewish.

 

For some months I’ve been following the things that various people have written here.

 

I thought that I had understood a great deal about the Manx people and considard them to be not untypical of most isolated, or at least insular communties with all the pro’s and con’s that result from living in such a way. I was wrong. I misunderstood just how bigoted and narrow minded some Manx people are, this was brought home to me by the nonsense that one or two people on this particular article have written about my country and my people.

 

I am used to Jew hatred. So is my husband.

 

Jew hating and Jew baiting, it’s a thing that goes to the bone in most European people and will probably never be eradicated. It’s a shame its based on myths rather than fact and that in history having a Jew to hate, bait, or blame was all to usfull for so many ordinary people who could pass the blame for what they had done to the strangers in town.

 

Or how rulers could start a pogrom because it was cheaper to do so than pay the debts that they had run up with Jews who had made money by trade. Killing is a very good way of paying bills. Or who just wanted to divert attention from internal problems as is being done by so many Arab states in the Middle East today.

 

What is not understood either because of deliberate ignorance or simple ignorance is that Israel is not a rogue state, it is legally established on part of what was Jewish lands, it was not set up as compensation for the shoa, it was decided upon by the League of Nations and the location was finally chosen as part of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire during World War one. After we finally kicked the British out after years of maladministration and cheating Israel was finally recogised by the UN as a free and soverign state, and up until the mid 50’s Arab and Jew within Israel were getting along fine after the inaugural war, declared by the neighbouring Arab states, was fought and won.

 

Then along came “Yasser Arafat” or to give it its real name Mohammed Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa Al-Husseini, a lying cheating piece of filth who claimed to have been born in Jerusalem but was actually born in Cairo.

 

The darling of The Muslim Brotherhood, an outfit dedicated to reconstructing a modern version of the Ottoman Caliphate. Arafat co founded Fatah, a terrorist group dedicated to destroying Israel and one of a number of Muslim Brotherhood terrorist groups who opperated and continue to opperate in other states that were formally part of the Ottoman Caliphate such as Iraq to name but one.

 

You people who rant on about Israel being this and Israel being that are fools. Israel is what it has to be, not what it wants to be. What it wants to be is a nation living peacefully with its neighbours. Until Arafat instigated the trouble that he did those same Palestinians now living on aid and hand outs, much of both coming from Israel, were working in Israel or for Israeli firms, being well paid, and living good lives.

 

Then the Palestinians who swept into Gaza, given up in a supposed land for peace deal, after destroying so much of the infrastructure left behind that they could have used to be self sufficient, elected Hamas.

 

What do you EXPECT Israel to do when a people in a territory choose to have an organisation committed to the destruction of Israel?

 

What do you expect Israel to do when that same group of people send thousands of rockets into civilian towns and cities? Not deliberately targeted at military strongpoints, at least there would be some argument that civilians were not a deliberate target, but such is not the case.

 

So what did we do? We provided rocket shelters in our southern towns, we protected our families, and we erected a “”cordon sanitaire around the place that we had previously given over to these peace seeking Palestinians. To try to minimise their peace seeking rockets and bombs.

 

We LEGALLY declared an exclusion zone out to sea, a thing we are perfectly and legally entitled to do under international law and did so in a way that complies with international law in order to permit the flow of goods and materials essential for life into Gaza. I wonder how much in the way of goods and essentials would flow into Israel if our positions were reversed.

 

STILL the fools of this world along with the Jew haters fail to grasp reality. The Palestinans in Gaza are having it rough. They elected a government that had war with Israel as the principle item of its manifesto. When any nation chooses and declares war the people have it rough, but this war could be over in an instant if the Palestinians asked for it to end and agreed to live in peace with us.

 

Together the whole region would bloom. But without that peace what would the rulesr of all the states in the middle East when their populations looked inwards at all that is wrong in their countries came under the spotlight.

 

Most of you couldn’t find Israel on a map, ( I think a couple of you coulnd’t find your assholes without a strong light and written instructions) yet you profess to know so much about it and all that is wrong with it and what it does. You know NOTHING.

 

You don’t even know that Bellyup isn’t my husband, Rog.

 

A good man in every way, a fine husband, a wonderful father, and now utterly sick of the continued stupidity he reads here. He’s given up.

 

I’ve not even started.

[Declan]

Mrs Rog, disagreement with the dreadful recent actions of Israel isn't the same as anti-Semitism.

 

It is rather ironic, that you begin by calling Manx people "bigoted and narrow-minded", based it seems not on bigoted comments but a disagreement over Israel. Your description of the Manx is in fact more stereotypical, derogatory and bigoted than any made about Jews in this thread.

 

What's even more bizarre is the comment that Rog is "a good man in every way" when over many years he has been the most bigoted and narrow-minded poster on here, Muslims, gays, Scousers, the Manx, blacks - anyone that doesn't fit into Rog's random selection of mental tics he pretends are "values", is subjected to the vilest, nastiest abuse.

[Twitch]

Spot on Declan. Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Yoshke Pandre]

What “” dreadful recent actions? Not letting our enemies, enemies that have declared war on us and fired thousands of rockets into our civilian centres get access to materials they will use to assist them in what they’re doing to us? Actions such as targeted attacks on the terrorists who are trying ti kill us and destoy our nation that we preceded with warnings that we were going to strike at where they were based so that the innocent could get out of harms way? Or maybe “”dreadful recent actions such as not sitting back and be slaughtered as would otherwise be the case.

 

Of COURSE it’s anti-Semitic to criticise us for what we do to defend ourselves from an enemy who does far worse than we would even think of doing let alone do.

 

My description of the Mannx isn’t based on steroeotypes, it’s based on what I see and read on this forum and what I’ve seen heard and encountered on my visits to your island. When it comes to being bigoted to accuse my Husband of being “”the most bigoted and narrow-minded poster on here is rubbish. I tell you this, his values are fine, good, decent, and above all based on fact. Something that so many people who rant on about my country obviously care little about.

[Declan]

Of COURSE it’s anti-Semitic to criticise us for what we do to defend ourselves from an enemy who does far worse than we would even think of doing let alone do.

 

It may be wrong, but is it anti-Semitic? Is criticism of the Vatican over it's handling of the child abuse scandal anti-Christian?

 

 

(Using capital letters for emphasis doesn't make your statements correct, BTW)

[Yoshke Pandre]

Of COURSE it’s anti-Semitic to criticise us for what we do to defend ourselves from an enemy who does far worse than we would even think of doing let alone do.

 

It may be wrong, but is it anti-Semitic? Is criticism of the Vatican over it's handling of the child abuse scandal anti-Christian?

 

 

(Using capital letters for emphasis doesn't make your statements correct, BTW)

 

It may be wrong, but is it anti-Semitic?

 

Yes. It is anti-Semitic because what we are doing is to protect our nation. Our nation is the Jewish nation in our Jewish homeland. It is a homeland that happens to be multiethnic and unexclusive but nevertheless it is our Jewish national land. What we do to protect ourselves is not proportional, if it were there would by now be no Palestinians if we adopted the measures they use against us. We are also not equally armed with our enemies. We don’t have children to use as propaganda fodder, we don’t use our families as human shields for our fighters to hide behind, we don’t attack by infiltrating our enemies, we don’t spread lies, nor do we engage in putting our enemies in a position where they must do something or they will be destroyed.

 

Its not us who are militarily superior, we’re actually inferiourly equipped in the war being waged against us.

 

 

Is criticism of the Vatican over it's handling of the child abuse scandal anti-Christian?

 

No, but it’s anti-Roman Catholicism. The vatican and the Roman Catholic church are not Christian orginisations, The vatican isn’t the Christian homeland. It’s the head office of an orginisation that uses Christianity for its own rotten ends.

 

My use of capitals is to emphasise a point. Thats all.

[groudleho]

I feel a Yon Kipper war coming on

[Yoshke Pandre]

Over three months to go, and it's spelled Yom Kippur.