Israeli 'intervention'

[groudleho]

Your husband is Manx?

[Declan]

No, but it’s anti-Roman Catholicism. The vatican and the Roman Catholic church are not Christian orginisations, The vatican isn’t the Christian homeland. It’s the head office of an orginisation that uses Christianity for its own rotten ends.

 

It's not anti-Catholic though is it? It's not an attack on all Catholics, including those abused, and it's not motivated by a hatred of Catholics.

 

Just as criticism of the Israeli government's actions isn't anti-Semitic because it's not a criticism of all Jews or even all Israelis.

[Yoshke Pandre]

It's not anti-Catholic though is it? It's not an attack on all Catholics, including those abused, and it's not motivated by a hatred of Catholics.

 

That’s a matter of opinion.

 

Just as criticism of the Israeli government's actions isn't anti-Semitic because it's not a criticism of all Jews or even all Israelis.

 

Yes it is. It’s not only anti-Semitic because what’s being done is in aid of our Jewish nation, it’s also anti-Semitic because what we are doing is to protect ourselves and our nation. Deny us that and you deny us the right, all of us, to exist as a free people with a national identity, let alone live in our homeland.

 

If there is any criticism to be laid at the door of the Israeli government it is that to much attention is being paid to try to be over decent and over humane and nowhere near enough to doing what needs to be done.

 

That Turkish ship should not have been borded as if it were some sort of cruise liner, it should have been subjected to a massive and overwhelming attack by sea and air.

 

To send down brave men one by one and armed primarily with paintball guns was stupid and the outcome was obvious. At the very least blast grenades and irritant gas should have been used to soften the terrosrists up and with the bording crew armed with tazers and with firearms at the ready.

 

The best way to deal with terrorists is to beat them at their own game.

[jimbms]

What "" dreadful recent actions? Not letting our enemies, enemies that have declared war on us and fired thousands of rockets into our civilian centres get access to materials they will use to assist them in what they're doing to us?

mmm . So if they are enemies of your nation, then in being such they are entitled by international rules and the Geneva convention to have their civilians treated by such rules, anyone captured to be treated as a prisoner of war and its population not to be under siege even if enemy troops occupy the area as stated in international law.

And, before you state they do not comply to this, then the excuse you do it because they do it is a rather pathetic excuse, If the Palestinians held Israel to siege and prevented aid I would condemn them as I do condemn them for terrorist attacks and treatment of captured enemy, in the later two you are both as barbaric, the fact is Israel as a civilised 'sic' nation deems it acceptable to prevent any aid going to children by means of a blockade, they have stated that they even will not allow ships loaded, checked and crewed by UN personnel through, how can they have any excuse for this, they also in the past have protected allies whilst they went into refugee camps to murder civilians.

 

As yet I have not seen anyone here blame this on the Jewish people as a whole, people here are condemning the Israeli government thus all comment against a ruling power cannot be classed against a nations people therefore none of the comments are anti-Semitic.

 

Just to remind you - Anti-Semitic an adjective related or characterized by the hatred of Jews as a race or people.

 

 

Note it does not say hatred of a government or policy of such.

 

So please stick to what people are saying, not what you think or what you will believe will stop people freely speaking out

 

[jimbms]

Perhaps you'd have been better off keeping your money in Israel.

 

class

[Declan]

Israeli military boarded the Rachel Corrie, diverted it to their port, rifled through the aid and are going to dump it on the border, deported it's crew and passengers. Were they also anti-Semitic terrorists?

 

Are we to accept any action the Israeli government takes because to question it would be attacking the notion of a Jewish state, Judaism and all jews? Does that only apply to policies that can be construed as "defensive" or is criticism of Israeli education policies or health care programmes Anti-Semitic? If a Jewish Israeli criticises his Government is he being anti-Semitic? When the next Israeli government comes along (as they seem to do regularly) and takes a less confrontational attitude than Netanyah does that suddenly become non-anti-Semitic because it is the policy of the one Jewish state?

[Yoshke Pandre]

mmm . So if they are enemies of your nation, then in being such they are entitled by international rules and the Geneva convention to have their civilians treated by such rules, anyone captured to be treated as a prisoner of war and its population not to be under siege even if enemy troops occupy the area as stated in international law.

 

You really do write some nonsense.

 

And, before you state they do not comply to this, then the excuse you do it because they do it is a rather pathetic excuse, If the Palestinians held Israel to siege and prevented aid I would condemn them as I do condemn them for terrorist attacks and treatment of captured enemy, in the later two you are both as barbaric,

 

That is a lie. Captured terrorists are treated as appropriate and a hell of a lot better than they deserve.

 

the fact is Israel as a civilised 'sic' nation deems it acceptable to prevent any aid going to children by means of a blockade, they have stated that they even will not allow ships loaded, checked and crewed by UN personnel through,

 

There is no prevention of aid to children or anyone else. To even sugest there is is disgusting but then, making disgusting remarks and accusations is your stock in trade isn’t it.

 

The materials that comply with those goods which Israel has determined will not be used for weaponry can be transported into the Gaza strip. What Hammas want isn’t the food or the medicines, they want the concrete and the steel to build hardened bunkers and the wheelchairs to strip for the metallic tubeing they use in their rocketry.

 

Even the concrete can go into Gaza as long as it’s managed by the UN presence and verified as being used in housing in fact thousands of tons have gone in already.

 

how can they have any excuse for this, they also in the past have protected allies whilst they went into refugee camps to murder civilians.

 

When did then Israelis ever protect allies while they went in to murder civilians? Don’t come out with the Shabra and Shatila nonsense either. What took place there was not as is presented by so many who would like it to be what they report or comment on, at worst it was a big mistake by Sharon in trusting the Phalangists to do what they had said they were going to do, and even then it was because those same civilians were riddled with terrorist activists.

 

If you were correct in your assumptions you might have a point to argue but as you are wrong then you have no point to argue.

 

As yet I have not seen anyone here blame this on the Jewish people as a whole, people here are condemning the Israeli government thus all comment against a ruling power cannot be classed against a nations people therefore none of the comments are anti-Semitic.

 

Israel is the Jewish Nation. Attack Israel, you attack all Jewish people.

 

Just to remind you - Anti-Semitic an adjective related or characterized by the hatred of Jews as a race or people.

 

Anti-Semitic is a weasel word invented by an Jew hating piece of drec to avoid trouble in the past.

 

Note it does not say hatred of a government or policy of such.

 

Yes it does. Israel is the Jewish nation on the ground.

 

So please stick to what people are saying, not what you think or what you will believe will stop people freely speaking out.

 

It’s not people “”speaking out that’s at issue, its stupid fools, Jew haters, Jew Baiters, and trouble makers telling lies, twisting facts, and “”talking rubbish that are the problem.

[jimbms]

Yoshke Pandre I must congratulate you on how you managed to answer each section I wrote without actually answering the full statement and in some cases where I did condemn how both sides treated prisoners you turned it around to think I was condemning the Jewish side only. It is very bigoted of you to think that attacking any part of Israeli policy is attacking all Jews, but in considering this then can I take it that if you attack any part of a non Jewish organisation you are by your own definition attacking all non Jews. The Israeli government as an organisation is a racist, fascist and genocidal organisation, if you wish to class yourself as being with them, then so be it.

 

Just for interest Yoshke (or Yaski) Pandre is defined as a rude and offensive way of describing Jesus and, by extension, all Catholics (Catholic being the collective name used to describe all branches of the Christian religion as opposed to Roman Catholic). Bit of a racist and bigot are you not by attacking a religion by using such an offensive nick?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Bellup - Gaza has a degree of independence. But it is not a Palestinian sovereign nation, existing as a single unit with the other Palestinian territories, as it should do. Israel controls its airspace and controls its seas adjacent to it. And it is rendered to struggle economically because of its disconnection with the other territories.

 

Hamas did lots of things with the money, including spending most on weapons. What's your point? WHY does Palestine require aid in the first place?

 

Yes so you say but you give no facts at all to support these statements.

And it may have escaped your notice that the Chinese - astute business men all do not share your thoughts and think Africa very important.

You can look at degree of intervention in areas of famine and civil war that get a good idea of the differing levels of attention that are given to the plight of Africans.

 

The major export of Sudan is OIL.

Sudan neither producing a great deal of oil and nor does it (I believe) have mass reserves.

The major export of Palestine is nothing - the land has no oil and no resources ditto Israel.

They have built a land with the ingenuity and expertise of their people.[/b]

I am not talking about just Palestine. I am talking about the region as a whole, its strategic and economic importance.

 

What an extraordinarily thing to say !

So where do the Palestinians come on your colour richter scale ?

Some are dark skinned Mediterranean people some are pale skinned with blue eyes or do you divide that too?

Some on else used to do this......

Do you honestly believe that skin colour is irrelevent in how people in the West consider the importance of the suffering of other people or what is acceptable in other regions of the world?

 

So according to your lights human rights people only chose light skinned Palestinians as deserving of aid and attention as opposed to black Africans?

I am stating that if it was an issue about black Africans then people in the west would not care as much.

 

The surrounding countries are sovereign nations and do what they like.

Israel had nothing to do with the Iraq- Iran war

Israel had nothing to do with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait

It has nothing to do with unrest in the Yemen

Israeli s military power is used to defend itself.[/b]

No, they don't do what they like. Israel has intervened or threatened to intervene on many occasions when it believes neighbouring states could pose a future threat. Do you really not know how much Israel intervened on behalf of Iran in the Iran-Iraq War? And how the Israeli military were all set to intervene in the Gulf War if requested to, but were told to hold back?

It is absolutely understandable that a state would wish to protect itself from attack from other nations and remove that threat. But again, this is a threat that Israel brought on itself.

 

They have become aid dependent and it suits the Arab world to have them that way.

After all it is the gullible west who supplies the major part of that aid money ( Britain gives a Billion pounds a year)

Seems circular. Palestine needs aid because it suits the Arab world to aid continue to come to Palestine.

Again, why has Gaza become aid dependent?

 

Because they are ruled and indoctrinated by grievance ridden fanatics and we in the west pander to them.

Are the people in Tibet blowing up the Chinese?

Or if they are pissed of come to Europe and blow up Chinese take a ways ?

No they do not.

Please explain why you believe the Palestinians have resorted to terrorist tactics. Do you simply believe it is the same as Al Qaeda terrorism?

 

 

Evasive answer or rather no answer at all.

I have not portrayed the Palestinian situation as acceptable but they have in the main only themselves or their leaders to blame . they Have had ENDLESS attempts at PEACE negotiations from people all over the world.

Clinton facilitated the best off er they will ever had Barak would have given them 93% of everything they asked for and the turned it down.

There have been repeated attempts to get some arrangement made over the future of that region and how the Palestinian issue is to be resolved. It isn't simply about making peace. Over the past 30 years it has been apart from the creation of a Palestinian state. The latest set of negotiations on the matter fell apart because the Israeli and American government offered the Palestinians their vision of what a future state would look like. On the map it was clear that this would be a nation state that would have very little infrastructure and would be dependent on Israel economically. It was understandably rejected.

 

Nothing is acceptable to Hamas who DO NOT WANT PEACE they want the DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL

Forget Hamas. Let's see what happens when Israel arranges for the creation of Palestinian nation that is economically viable.

 

Do you actually know where Gaza is?

Course I do. I understand which nation has overall control of its trade links and economy viability.

 

 

 

 

The Israel government is not a terrorist government.

No one has had their plane hijacked by an Israeli nor do they blow up the tubes or buses.

Do you have absolutely no awareness of how Israel has responded to attacks upon itself with the wanton killing of Palestinian or Lebanese civilians in retribution. And then what of the response to the attacks from Lebanon a few years ago, where Israel destroyed the civilian infrastructure of the country, killing those who had nothing to do with conflict. This wasn't the precise use of military force to defend itself.

Israel former occupation of parts of Lebanon involved the killing of thousands, yet was not continued for the sake of self-defence.

 

 

Actually no.

Jordan and Egypt have both made treaties with Israel.

In Jordan this has led to join industrial projects that are beneficial to both parties.

Also young Jordanians and Israelis have done a lot of work together including exchange visits of children

This is the way forward .

However and sadly for the region but especially fro the Palestinians this is exactly what Hamas does not want for its people.

You seem to have this idea that it is simply about making peace, without recognising why there is no peace. I would advice reading the history of the region in respect of the creation of a Jewish state and subsequent Israeli resistance to the creation of a Palestinian state.

[Yoshke Pandre]

Israeli military boarded the Rachel Corrie, diverted it to their port, rifled through the aid and are going to dump it on the border, deported it's crew and passengers. Were they also anti-Semitic terrorists?

 

They were supporting the anti-semitic terrorists. They got off lightly.

 

Are we to accept any action the Israeli government takes because to question it would be attacking the notion of a Jewish state, Judaism and all jews?

 

Not to question it, but to always condemn it, especially when the condemnation is based on falsehoods such as what has taken place was illegal let alone piracy. It was neither. We question our conduct, we chase out and punish those who act badly against our enemies. Do Hammas? Do they hell.

 

Does that only apply to policies that can be construed as "defensive" or is criticism of Israeli education policies or health care programmes Anti-Semitic? If a Jewish Israeli criticises his Government is he being anti-Semitic? When the next Israeli government comes along (as they seem to do regularly) and takes a less confrontational attitude than Netanyah does that suddenly become non-anti-Semitic because it is the policy of the one Jewish state?

 

If the viability of Israel is threatened or if its legitimacy is questioned then that is anti-Semitic.

 

Many years ago when starting my national service I took an oath and a commitment to the effect that the Masada would never fall again. During the Yom Kippur war, in which I fought and killed, it remains with me to this day. It is the same with most of us.

 

Where were the same types of people who complain today when WE were being massacred in the German death camps, where were the same types of people condemning what the Arabs were doing to US. Now when we dare defend ourselves and our nation how bad we are and yet if we were to do a fraction of what we get accused of we would have the Palestinians eating out of our hands.

 

I’ve learned just as most Jewish people do that were dammed if we do and were dammed if we don’t and so like most of us, especially those who live, work, and govern Israel we do what is right, what is within the law, and what we need to do to survive. We are truthful, maybe we should not be because our enemies seem to avhieve far more by being liars, and our collective consciousnes are clear.

[bellyup]

Bellup - Gaza has a degree of independence. But it is not a Palestinian sovereign nation, existing as a single unit with the other Palestinian territories, as it should do. Israel controls its airspace and controls its seas adjacent to it. And it is rendered to struggle economically because of its disconnection with the other territories.

 

There is no way it can be one state the two regions are too far apart.

Economically the Gaza has deteriorated since he withdrawal of Israel. Previously many Gazans worked in Israel but since the election of Hamas a group that has as its aim THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL tighter security measures have been in force it is no longer safe to have Gazzans working in Israel.

 

 

Hamas did lots of things with the money, including spending most on weapons.

 

Thats great aid money is meant to aid not to be spent on weapons

re Africa

You are completely wrong about Africa/Sudan etc it would be wise to read up on the situation before hitting keyboard.

[/b]

 

I am talking about the region as a whole, its strategic and economic importance.

 

What economic importance? Israel is a land without resources apart from its people.

Do you honestly believe that skin colour is irrelevent in how people in the West consider the importance of the suffering of other people or what is acceptable in other regions of the world?

 

Hello .......... what colour is the main leader of the free world at this moment?

I am stating that if it was an issue about black Africans then people in the west would not care as much.

 

Baldocks

 

The surrounding countries are sovereign nations and do what they like.

Israel had nothing to do with the Iraq- Iran war

Israel had nothing to do with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait

It has nothing to do with unrest in the Yemen

Israeli s military power is used to defend itself.

[/b]

 

No, they don't do what they like. Israel has intervened or threatened to intervene on many occasions when it believes neighbouring states could pose a future threat.

 

As does any nation.

 

 

 

Why are they aid defendant?

 

Because they are ruled and indoctrinated by grievance ridden fanatics and we in the west pander to them.

Are the people in Tibet blowing up the Chinese?

Or if they are pissed of come to Europe and blow up Chinese take a ways ?

No they do not.

 

 

Please explain why you believe the Palestinians have resorted to terrorist tactics. Do you simply believe it is the same as Al Qaeda terrorism?

 

Because they have a grievance and see themselves as victims ( aided and abetted by the gullible liberal west)

Terrorism is terrorism .

Plus this is radical fundamentalist islam who believe that it is their duty to take over the world for Islam

 

 

 

There have been repeated attempts to get some arrangement made over the future of that region and how the Palestinian issue is to be resolved. It isn't simply about making peace. Over the past 30 years it has been apart from the creation of a Palestinian state. The latest set of negotiations on the matter fell apart because the Israeli and American government offered the Palestinians their vision of what a future state would look like. On the map it was clear that this would be a nation state that would have very little infrastructure and would be dependent on Israel economically. It was understandably rejected.

 

So they want Israel a flourishing and successful country on a plate . Tough!

 

It is not for Israel to provide them with an economic success story - until they renounce violence and get working they wont make a success of anything.

 

re intervention

 

Israel has the right to defend its people and its soldiers from those who would kidnapp and harm them.

All the trouble flare ups have been after Hamas /Hezballah deliberately provoked the situation .

You obviously have no inkling of the MINDSET of Radical ISLAM.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually no.

Jordan and Egypt have both made treaties with Israel.

In Jordan this has led to join industrial projects that are beneficial to both parties.

Also young Jordanians and Israelis have done a lot of work together including exchange visits of children

This is the way forward .

However and sadly for the region but especially fro the Palestinians this is exactly what Hamas does not want for its people.

 

You seem to have this idea that it is simply about making peace, without recognising why there is no peace. I w

 

 

There is NO peace because Hamas want the DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL this is the major and overriding reason.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If the viability of Israel is threatened or if its legitimacy is questioned then that is anti-Semitic.

No, it most certainly isn't! It might be anti-Zionist, however. But it depends on what is meant by zionism. If I lived in the 1950s or 60s I would have supported the ending of the Jewish State. A state that should never have been created. But I would have wanted a bi-national state. Though the situation is completely different today.

Today, it has to be questioned as to what you mean by viability. If it means no alterations to the Jewish state in order to accommodate a sovereign Palestine nation then I would against such viability.

 

Not to question it, but to always condemn it, especially when the condemnation is based on falsehoods such as what has taken place was illegal let alone piracy. It was neither. We question our conduct, we chase out and punish those who act badly against our enemies. Do Hammas? Do they hell.

The UN seems to disagree. Have you read today's news?

[pongo]

dammed if we do and were dammed if we don’t

 

Are you sure you aren't the same writer who does Rog but wearing heels? Since coincidentally she normally can't spelled damn either.

 

Eg.

 

That didn’t work any more than the damm fool “social Integrated Estates” on the Mainland which mix decent people with scum families works.

 

in the Far East, Africa, and much of the third world generally people from owner to inspector simply don't give a damm.

 

Nessa --- a damm fine contribution.

 

etc

[bellyup]

If the viability of Israel is threatened or if its legitimacy is questioned then that is anti-Semitic.

No, it most certainly isn't! It might be anti-Zionist, however.

 

 

"When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism."

 

Martin Luther King

 

 

 

 

 

If I lived in the 1950s or 60s I would have supported the ending of the Jewish State.

 

Rather foolish since it only become a state in 1948

 

A state that should never have been created.

Sez you!

That would of course mean that the other created states made from the partition of the Ottoman empire will also have to be dismantled.

 

Re UN

The UN is a deeply flawed entity it has no power and no credibility.

[bellyup]

the fact is Israel as a civilised 'sic' nation deems it acceptable to prevent any aid going to children by means of a blockade, they have stated that they even will not allow ships loaded, checked and crewed by UN personnel through, how can civilians.

 

What about the Turkish blockade of Armenia?

What about their childen?

Why arent the Turkish activists sending aid there?

Why arent the liberal lefties jumping up and down about that blockade?

What about a sovereign state for Kurdistan?

Can't they have a state?

What does the international community think of that?