Israeli 'intervention'

[Freggyragh]

 

The Arabs in Israel have the right of free speech the same as any other citizen.

But when a citizen actively works to harm his own country this is treason.

We hung Lord Haw Haw remember?

 

Yes, they have the same right of free speech as the Jews - neither are allowed to agitate against Israel being a Jewish state.

 

Britain and Germany were at war while Lord Haw Haw was broadcasting. Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel are not at war, in fact, you keep claiming that they are living in a 'liberal democracy'.

[bellyup]

Singapore??? They DON'T want a tiny portion of land to become a sovereign nation, they want all the Palestinian territories to form one unit.

 

 

I am going to ask you again.

Do you know where Gaza is?

You don't seem to understand the geographical implications at all.

There ARE only TWO areas of Palestinian 'territory'

 

 

Gaza adjoins Egypt in the south and was formally under control of Egypt

Why didn't the Egyptians make it a viable state in the long years of their control?

Why did they refuse the Palestinians citizenship of Egypt while it was their territory?

Because - they distrust the Palestinians, they hate and fear Hamas who is strongly allies to the Muslim brother hood in Egypt - a fanatical fundamentalist Isacco group.

 

 

Where there are these fanatic ignorance and poverty follow.

There is no advancement in Islamic countries - they deny half the population ( women) human rights

 

The other territory that the Palestinian claim is the WEST BANK which towards the north of the country and formally belonged to Jordan. Although there has always been a Jewish presence there for thousands of years.

They are not near each other they are hundreds of miles from each other so they can never be one unit.

Even their politics are different

 

The West Bank is ruled by the Fatah party and loathe Hamas.

 

Do explain what the Palestinian problem has always been and continues to be today?

 

Firstly their corrupt leadership .

Arafat ( was'nt even Palestinian) and now Hamas only use the Palestinian 'problem ' to further their own ends ( and line their pockets)

Stupid and useless provocation of a more powerful neighbour.

Attacking the innocent civilians of another country

Refusing any peace process out of hand.

Refusal to remove the destruction of Israel from their charter.

These are not the actions of a country that wants peace.

 

 

Well done LDV you are beginning to see the light.

FYI many Palestinians bitterly regret Hamas being elected they realise they have been duped.

A private Palestinian joke doing the rounds in Gaza ( not within hearing of Hamas of course)

 

Not beginning to see anything. I haven't changed my position. I don't know, maybe you see things in some 'black and white' scope of there being no position other than an outright support of Hamas or the Israeli state.

Hamas are awful and are a terrorist organisation. But that doesn't mean that there are not understandable reasons why they came to power and why they have popular support. But you just argue this 'poor' Israel story and don't recognise it is why terrorists are now in power in Gaza.

 

Hamas are the tool of Iran

Iran wishes to establish an Islamic Caliphate in the ME.

The rest of the Arab world shudders at the thought.

Iran is a fanatical theocracy and will stop at nothing to gain power - however it has alienated its own people by its cruel and oppressive regime.

Hamas came to power because the people were sick of the corruption in the Fatah parties and Hamas has represented itself as a socially caring party.

Only when it gained power it became obvious that it was far more and is every bit as tyrannical and brutal as any despotic regime.

These things are not as simple as people would like to think.

 

Ie Hamas good Israel Bad

 

Look at the 'aid' deliveries

If the country were in dire straits would it refuse aid to a starving child?

No of course not.

But its not in dire straits.

It can afford to refuse this aid

( After all those dumbos in Israel let in 15000 tonnes a week anyway) whats a measley 10,000 .

 

And they can stuff their wheelchairs we dont really want charity from a bunch of misguided infidels anyway .

 

WE ( HAMAS) want the PUBLICITY not the silly wheelchairs!

 

Not to mention whatever Iran is putting into their Swiss bank accounts.

 

And by goodness we have the Israels on the back foot they fall for our tricks time after time - thats the disadvantage of having some moral principles .

 

( Thank Allah we dont have to deal with the Russians!)

[bellyup]

@ Fraggelrock

 

Lord Haw Haw was not a German

[Yoshke Pandre]

I had the “”Pleasure to listen to the liar Arafat in English and Arabic. Time afterv time what he said in English was so different to what he said in Arabic as to make me wonder if it was a case of which language I understood least. Worst of all was what he said after the Camp David meeting. He told the West one thing, he told the Arabs another, and his plan was buy time and gain advantage. There are aspects of Islam that I don’t think you will ever have heard of that relate to deliberate lying in order to acheive an end. People think that Fatah have “”Recognised Israel. They have not. They have implicitly done so but that means nothing. They have not explicitly done so and nor will they.

 

People write and talk about this “”Palestinian people. The “”Palestinian people are an invention by Arafat and his backers. There is a group of people today who have become The Palestinian People, but that is only because it is an invented name for what are actually a collection of groups of people many having very different intentions and very little in common. The Christian Palestinian people often insist on being called not Palestinian but Phoenician to separate themselves from what they see as gutter Arabs and desert dwelling nomads.

 

So much you who condemn know nothing about. Maybe someone who knows so much as to be able to make intelligent and informed criticism will answer me a simple question. What else do you discuss with someone who is sworn to destroy you with an unbreakable oath other than the timeing and means of that destruction?

[Yoshke Pandre]

 

 

Oh, and I see Interior Minister Eli Yishai is proposing a bill to revoke citizenship and expulsion from the legislature for Arab MKs who took part in the flotilla, or may be thinking about political critique of the Sate of Israel in the future. Liberal Democracy? You don't understand the concept.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100605/wl_mideast_afp/egyptisraelmarriagecitizenshiptrial_20100605151410

 

Nurenberg 1935. It starts. Again.

[bellyup]

 

 

Oh, and I see Interior Minister Eli Yishai is proposing a bill to revoke citizenship and expulsion from the legislature for Arab MKs who took part in the flotilla, or may be thinking about political critique of the Sate of Israel in the future. Liberal Democracy? You don't understand the concept.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100605/wl_mideast_afp/egyptisraelmarriagecitizenshiptrial_20100605151410

 

Nurenberg 1935. It starts. Again.

 

A massive backward step for Egypt .

 

And against their own faith too as Jews and Christian are recognised by the Koran as 'people of the book.'

[Chinahand]

Just to say in regards to all this occurring in International Waters it is a principle going back to Grotius that Blockades can be enforced in international waters.

 

The Israeli blockade isn't particularly tendatious in terms of Maritime law - blockaders are allowed to sieze and divert to its ports any vessels attempting to run a blockade.

 

Certainly politically there are all sorts of issues, but Israel has clearly declared it is in armed conflict with the government of the Gaza Strip, it has publicized its blockade and enforced it without resistance up until this incident - don't forget the other 6 or so ships simply allowed the Israelis to board when ordered to do so - only on this ship did they decide to attack those bording her.

 

What the Israeli ambassador said to the UN has some merit. Link

 

As does this from an Israeli Lawyer:

 

[Freggyragh]

@ Fraggelrock

 

Lord Haw Haw was not a German

 

Yes, Lord Haw Haw (lets assume you mean William Joyce) was a British passport holder who assisted the German war effort against Britain.

 

What has that got to do with an Arab citizen of Israel supporting a peace flotilla bring supplies to blockaded Gaza? Israel hasn't actually declared war on the flotilla has it?

[jimbms]

@ Fraggelrock

 

Lord Haw Haw was not a German

 

Yes, Lord Haw Haw (lets assume you mean William Joyce) was a British passport holder who assisted the German war effort against Britain.

 

What has that got to do with an Arab citizen of Israel supporting a peace flotilla bring supplies to blockaded Gaza? Israel hasn't actually declared war on the flotilla has it?

 

In actual fact Joyce can be said to have duel nationality as old Adolf gave him honorary German Citizenship, so he was German.

[Freggyragh]

@ Fraggelrock

 

Lord Haw Haw was not a German

 

Yes, Lord Haw Haw (lets assume you mean William Joyce) was a British passport holder who assisted the German war effort against Britain.

 

What has that got to do with an Arab citizen of Israel supporting a peace flotilla bring supplies to blockaded Gaza? Israel hasn't actually declared war on the flotilla has it?

 

In actual fact Joyce can be said to have duel nationality as old Adolf gave him honorary German Citizenship, so he was German.

 

He could have also had Irish or American citizenship.

[bellyup]

@ Fraggelrock

 

Lord Haw Haw was not a German

 

Yes, Lord Haw Haw (lets assume you mean William Joyce) was a British passport holder who assisted the German war effort against Britain.

 

What has that got to do with an Arab citizen of Israel supporting a peace flotilla bring supplies to blockaded Gaza? Israel hasn't actually declared war on the flotilla has it?

 

In actual fact Joyce can be said to have duel nationality as old Adolf gave him honorary German Citizenship, so he was German.

 

He could have also had Irish or American citizenship.

 

 

Same traitorous neck same noose.

[bellyup]

Just to say in regards to all this occurring in International Waters it is a principle going back to Grotius that Blockades can be enforced in international waters.

 

The Israeli blockade isn't particularly tendatious in terms of Maritime law - blockaders are allowed to sieze and divert to its ports any vessels attempting to run a blockade.

 

Certainly politically there are all sorts of issues, but Israel has clearly declared it is in armed conflict with the government of the Gaza Strip, it has publicized its blockade and enforced it without resistance up until this incident - don't forget the other 6 or so ships simply allowed the Israelis to board when ordered to do so - only on this ship did they decide to attack those bording her.

 

What the Israeli ambassador said to the UN has some merit. Link

 

As does this from an Israeli Lawyer:

 

 

Thanks for the link very interesting.

[Freggyragh]

The Israeli legal expert's opinion is not a judgement, it is an opinion. A blockade is usually only considered lawful when a state of war or armed conflict exists between two sovereign independent statee, and in such a situation force may be used to enforce a blockade. Gaza is not a sovereign independent state. Some would say that it is an autonomous refugee ghetto, and both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International say that in Gaza, by the standards of international law, Israel is an occupying power. But whatever interpretation you favour, Gaza is certainly not recognized as an independent state by israel. Israel therefore has no legal right to interfere with shipping outside its 12 mile limit.

 

The nature of armed conflict has changed over the years. Private military contractors and terrorist groups are now as likely to engage in armed conflict as are nation states. Perhaps that is Israel's argument. So legal, and moral, judgement seems to rest on your opinion of the nature of the peace flotilla.

 

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Questions for Bellyup and Pandre; why does Israel ban chocolate, soccer balls, crayons, wheelchairs, tinned fruit, stationary, ambulances, and musical instruments, basic building supplies (to the extent that the UN relief ansd Works Agency has to be housed in a mud hut), TVs and computer equipment from entering Gaza? Are they crucial weapons for Jihad?

 

Why have Gaza fishing boats been restricted to within 3 miles of their coast? Would catching fish in deeper water be an act of Jihad?

 

Why would Micheál Martin (Irish Foreign Minister - and only EU envoy to have visited Gaza in the past 12 months) describe the blockade of Gaza as 'inhumane and unacceptable'? Is he a jihadist? (His opinion is that the purpose of the blockade seems to be enrich Hamas and marginalize the voices of moderation.)

 

Why have Oxfam, CARE International and Amnesty International all urged Israel to end the blockade? Are they all Jihadists?

 

Why did Jimmy Carter, speaking to children in Gaza, say of the blockade "The responsibility for this terrible human rights crime lies in Jerusalem, Cairo, Washington, and throughout the international community. This abuse must cease; the crimes must be investigated; the walls must be brought down, and the basic right of freedom must come to you,"? Is he a Jihadist?

 

Why aren't Gazans being allowed to rebuild the houses, schools, clinics, police stations and power stations that were destroyed by Israel in the 2009 conflict?

 

What does Israel want to happen in Gaza? I am not anti-Jewish, far from it. I am, however, against religious bigots of whatever faith, and I am not going to argue about, ignore, or belittle, the evil of Hamas firing rockets into Israel, or other acts of terrorism by the Jihadists.

 

It is the decision to punish and marginalize all Palestinians, the heavy-handed military response to every threat, the insistence on expanding settlement on Palestinian land, etc, etc, that I cannot understand. It seems to me that the Likud hawks in Israel believe that the only possibility for peace is to permanently police or imprison the Palestinians. That, in my opinion, means permanent conflict. Is that what you want?

[bellyup]

The Israeli legal expert's opinion is not a judgement, it is an opinion.

 

A legal opinion is usually legal.

 

 

A blockade is usually only considered lawful when a state of war or armed conflict exists between two sovereign independent statee, and in such a situation force may be used to enforce a blockade. Gaza is not a sovereign independent state. Some would say that it is an autonomous refugee ghetto, and both Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International say that in Gaza, by the standards of international law, Israel is an occupying power. But whatever interpretation you favour, Gaza is certainly not recognized as an independent state by israel. Israel therefore has no legal right to interfere with shipping outside its 12 mile limit.

 

Hamas has in it written charter which it refuses to refute the destruction of the State of Isreal.

It does not recognise Israel and seeks to harm its citizens by missile attacks.

It therefore is in a state of armed conflict with Israel.

The nature of armed conflict has changed over the years. Private military contractors and terrorist groups are now as likely to engage in armed conflict as are nation states. Perhaps that is Israel's argument. So legal, and moral, judgement seems to rest on your opinion of the nature of the peace flotilla.

 

Yes I believe that the peace flotilla was an deliberate act of provocation. Naturally the genuine - and i expect there are genuine peace activist on board think otherwise.

 

Questions for Bellyup and Pandre; why does Israel ban chocolate, soccer balls, crayons, wheelchairs, tinned fruit, stationary, ambulances, and musical instruments, basic building supplies (to the extent that the UN relief ansd Works Agency has to be housed in a mud hut), TVs and computer equipment from entering Gaza? Are they crucial weapons for Jihad?

I dont know. I expect it is because these are not the basics of life.

The building materiels may be uses to make weapons, although some are ley in for building projects of a humanitarian nature.

Why have Gaza fishing boats been restricted to within 3 miles of their coast? Would catching fish in deeper water be an act of Jihad?

 

I dont know

Why would Micheál Martin (Irish Foreign Minister - and only EU envoy to have visited Gaza in the past 12 months) describe the blockade of Gaza as 'inhumane and unacceptable'? Is he a jihadist? (His opinion is that the purpose of the blockade seems to be enrich Hamas and marginalize the voices of moderation.)

 

He is entitled to his opinion and may be right but where are the voices of moderation?

 

 

Why have Oxfam, CARE International and Amnesty International all urged Israel to end the blockade? Are they all Jihadists?

 

Amnesty is no longer as credible as it once was that said worthy as they may be they are not committed to keeping innocent civilians safe from terror.

Why did Jimmy Carter, speaking to children in Gaza, say of the blockade "The responsibility for this terrible human rights crime lies in Jerusalem, Cairo, Washington, and throughout the international community. This abuse must cease; the crimes must be investigated; the walls must be brought down, and the basic right of freedom must come to you,"? Is he a Jihadist?

Speaking to a rather captive audience!

hes no jihadist but IMO a gullible fool and has in fact has apologized to Israel for some of his remarks.

 

Why aren't Gazans being allowed to rebuild the houses, schools, clinics, police stations and power stations that were destroyed by Israel in the 2009 conflict?

 

Why dont they give back Gilad Shalit - that is what started all this trouble?

 

What does Israel want to happen in Gaza? I am not anti-Jewish, far from it. I am, however, against religious bigots of whatever faith, and I am not going to argue about, ignore, or belittle, the evil of Hamas firing rockets into Israel, or other acts of terrorism by the Jihadists.

 

They only want to live in peace in their country

I believe they want peace for the Gaza too.

It is the decision to punish and marginalize all Palestinians, the heavy-handed military response to every threat, the insistence on expanding settlement on Palestinian land, etc, etc, that I cannot understand. It seems to me that the Likud hawks in Israel believe that the only possibility for peace is to permanently police or imprison the Palestinians. That, in my opinion, means permanent conflict. Is that what you want?

 

This can be changed in a heart beat.

1) Recognise Israel- remove the words 'destruction of Israel from the Hamas charter.

2) Stop firing missiles and other acts of terrorism on Israeli citizens.

3) Release Gilad Shalit

 

 

Hamas never offers anything that would prove it wants peace.

Until it does nothing can change.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Bellyup, just interested but do you believe that a Palestinian sovereign nation should be established that will unite the territories, e.g. the West Bank and Gaza, that does not involve some paltry offer of a dislocated set-up that you call the "93% of everything..."?

This is what this is all over but you endlessly rant on about peace.