Saville Report Released

[When Skies Are Grey]

Bloody Sunday report finally out

[pongo]

BBC link

 

The inquiry learnt of the existence of a memo, signed by Sir Robert [General Sir Robert Ford], in which he suggested a policy of shooting some rioters in order to restore law and order in Derry ....

 

... General Jackson [General Sir Mike Jackson] told the inquiry: "People should be careful not to make a ridiculous jump from a memorandum like that to an allegation that there was a deliberate policy to shoot people."

 

!

[- Paul -]

3.37pm: Cameron says the inquiry covers the actions of some individuals, including senior officers and Martin McGuiness. McGuiness was present and probably armed with a sub-machine gun, according to the report. But he did not do anything that could excuse soldiers opening fire, Cameron goes on.

 

Ok

 

Cue St Bono writing another song.

[VinnieK]

BBC link

 

The inquiry learnt of the existence of a memo, signed by Sir Robert [General Sir Robert Ford], in which he suggested a policy of shooting some rioters in order to restore law and order in Derry ....

 

... General Jackson [General Sir Mike Jackson] told the inquiry: "People should be careful not to make a ridiculous jump from a memorandum like that to an allegation that there was a deliberate policy to shoot people."

 

!

 

Oh, a deliberate suggestion is very different to a deliberate policy. The main difference being that you can hold someone to account for the latter and not the former.

[pongo]

3.37pm: Cameron says the inquiry covers the actions of some individuals, including senior officers and Martin McGuiness. McGuiness was present and probably armed with a sub-machine gun, according to the report. But he did not do anything that could excuse soldiers opening fire, Cameron goes on.

 

Imagine if the army was shooting people in London. Or sectarian mobs were burning people out of their homes in Oxford. And nothing was being done to stop it because the Police were supporting those mobs. People would inevitably look to their communities and families for leadership and defence. They would have no choice.

 

And it's worth Googling to remember what the Civil Rights marchers were campaigning for. Nothing so very extraordinary by today's standards:

 

• one person one vote
  
• an end to discrimination in housing
  
• employment equality
  
• an end to discrimination in local government
  
• an end to the gerrymandering of local govt boundaries
  
• disbandment of the B-Specials - the Protestant Police reserve
  

[VinnieK]

Imagine if the army was shooting people in London. Or sectarian mobs were burning people out of their homes in Oxford. And nothing was being done to stop it because the Police were supporting those mobs.

 

Exacerbated further by the fact that few of the issues that sparked the troubles were even being discussed in Parliament early on due to a convention that Westminster didn't involve itself in the business of Ulster.

[- Paul -]

3.37pm: Cameron says the inquiry covers the actions of some individuals, including senior officers and Martin McGuiness. McGuiness was present and probably armed with a sub-machine gun, according to the report. But he did not do anything that could excuse soldiers opening fire, Cameron goes on.

 

Imagine if the army was shooting people in London. Or sectarian mobs were burning people out of their homes in Oxford. And nothing was being done to stop it because the Police were supporting those mobs. People would inevitably look to their communities and families for leadership and defence. They would have no choice.

 

And it's worth Googling to remember what the Civil Rights marchers were campaigning for. Nothing so very extraordinary by today's standards:

 

• one person one vote
  
• an end to discrimination in housing
  
• employment equality
  
• an end to discrimination in local government
  
• an end to the gerrymandering of local govt boundaries
  
• disbandment of the B-Specials - the Protestant Police reserve
  

Indeed

It is sometimes overlooked or forgotten that the climate then was one of bigotry, oppression and frankly religious hatred. Given that, it is surprisng that the various factions have managed to overcome that history as well as they have.

[P.K.]

Imagine if the army was shooting people in London. Or sectarian mobs were burning people out of their homes in Oxford. And nothing was being done to stop it because the Police were supporting those mobs. People would inevitably look to their communities and families for leadership and defence. They would have no choice.

 

Wrong. Deploying the British Army onto the streets of Britain, because that's what it is, is a huge political step. What is often forgotten is that they were deployed primarily to protect the Catholics from the Protestants.

 

However I have no doubt in my mind that they were fired upon by the "IRA defenders" of the Catholics and the planks took that as a valid excuse to drop rioters. I also think the claim that all those shot were "innocent bystanders" is stretching it a bit. Throwing rocks at those trained to use lethal force to defend themselves is probably not the best of ideas, as some of them found out to their cost.

 

I'm also sure that the planks were a tad "over zealous" but when you've been deluged in shit by the harridans of hate who you're actually there to protect it's understandable. One plank was reported firing on the run which is really really stupid. He'll never hit a bloody thing like that! Shame on him...

[VinnieK]

Wrong. Deploying the British Army onto the streets of Britain, because that's what it is, is a huge political step. What is often forgotten is that they were deployed primarily to protect the Catholics from the Protestants.

 

No they weren't. The British Army was specifically deployed to support the RUC, who were a part of the whole problem to begin with. Although initially this involved preventing Loyalist violence against Catholic communities, and the Army was welcomed as such by the Catholic community, that was not the specific mandate of the armed forces (as was demonstrated during the initial phases of internment where not one Loyalist was picked up). Hence ill-judged operations like the Falls Curfew soon became the norm and Loyalist violence continued largely unhindered.

 

Throwing rocks at those trained to use lethal force to defend themselves is probably not the best of ideas, as some of them found out to their cost...

 

I'm also sure that the planks were a tad "over zealous" but when you've been deluged in shit by the harridans of hate who you're actually there to protect it's understandable

 

Other units in the area had managed to deal with it without losing control to the degree the Paras did or resorting to their methods. The Parachute regiment was dropped in the middle of a hugely volatile situation primarily because they were known for their 'toughness'. Although the specific events of the day wesn't planned for, their presence and the decision to mount a huge arrest operation on the day of a massive civil rights protest was clearly designed to engineer a confrontation during which the Paras could show the Northern Irish what they were made of. And didn't they do just that, all too well.

 

It was a stupid operation planned by stupid men stuck in the ways of colonial policing where, as in Aden you could shoot or threaten to shoot a few of the natives in the name of restoring order and get away with it. The result: innocent blood spilled, increased resentment amongst the nationalist community and a hell of a lot of overtime for the provos' recruiting sergeants.

[Zap Brannigan]

I find the whole affair, from 1 Para shooting dead innocent civilians (although one chap was suspected of carrying nail bombs with out any intent to use them - go figure) to the use of 200 million pounds to bring this report out, to the grinning, leering face of Martin McGuinness (A man armed in the city of Derry that day) parading through Derry today as though all his terrorist crimes have been somehow forgotten, I hope now that the Paras have been found (rightly) guilty of using unnecessary force, that the inhabitants of every City, town, village in Northern Ireland where someone was murdered either by loyalists or catholics now start enquiries to bring each and every murderer to some form of justice, it's easy to forget all the other innocents that have no one to argue their corner.

[VinnieK]

I hope now that the Paras have been found (rightly) guilty of using unnecessary force, that the inhabitants of every City, town, village in Northern Ireland where someone was murdered either by loyalists or catholics now start enquiries to bring each and every murderer to some form of justice, it's easy to forget all the other innocents that have no one to argue their corner.

 

Surely a lot of them did have their own enquiries, in the form of police and army investigations into paramilitary murders at the time.

 

The reason the Saville report was needed was precisely because the accused in this incident were agents of the British State, and so that state needed to be seen to hold itself to account. The importance of doing so being all the more powerful thanks to the miserable cock up that was Widgery (and it could probably have been a lot shorter if the MoD hadn't been so determined to attempt to thwart investigations into Bloody Sunday).

[Sean South]

I find the whole affair, from 1 Para shooting dead innocent civilians (although one chap was suspected of carrying nail bombs with out any intent to use them - go figure) to the use of 200 million pounds to bring this report out, to the grinning, leering face of Martin McGuinness (A man "probably" armed in the city of Derry that day) parading through Derry today as though all his terrorist crimes have been somehow forgotten, I hope now that the Paras have been found (rightly) guilty of using unnecessary force, that the inhabitants of every City, town, village in Northern Ireland where someone was murdered either by loyalists or catholics now start enquiries to bring each and every murderer to some form of justice, it's easy to forget all the other innocents that have no one to argue their corner.

Zap, you left out the word 'probably' as was quoted in the report ie. there is no proof of that claim!

 

Also despite the report none of the paras have been brought to justice so why do you expect others from either side to be?

[pongo]

After that it would probably have seemed like joining the French Resistance.

 

the grinning, leering face of Martin McGuinness

 

You might not like him but there would not have been any sort of peace process without him, according to history. Because he represented his community and opinion which would have had to have been brought along. It isn't about personalities - if it had not have been him it would have been someone else filling the same role. And perhaps someone less bright or less able to find out and convey how some sort of settlement could be achieved.

 

Public opinion was informed and influenced by what happened that day when all those people were shot dead whilst marching for basic Civil Rights. Like Sharpeville or the end of the Prague Spring.

[P.K.]

Public opinion was informed and influenced by what happened that day when all those people were shot dead whilst marching for basic Civil Rights. Like Sharpeville or the end of the Prague Spring.

 

Some of those shot dead were not marching for basic human rights but rather to hurt soldiers sent there to protect them.

 

Sure the response by the Paras was disproportionate. But if you haven't been deluged in rotten eggs, used tampons, bags full of dogshit, spat at etc etc by those you've been sent to protect then I don't see how sitting on your fat arses in front of a screen you have any right to judge.

[VinnieK]

Blah blah blah blah blah stupid stupid blah blah I don't see how sitting on your fat arses in front of a screen you have any right to judge.

 

We weren't in position to. Lord Saville was, and what was the conclusion of the report again? Oh yeah...