Saville Report Released

[P.K.]

... 7 years later in 1979 by which time the war had escalated almost out of control - and surely partly as a result of events such as Bloody Sunday which would have caused people to become involved in armed conflict. Isn't that partly what Bloody Sunday is remembered as ... like a point of no return ?

 

Well, let's face it, it wasn't exactly winning the "hearts and minds" now was it?

 

I thought the reference to a memo about "shooting ringleaders after warnings" somewhat amusing. Because that's exactly the SOP as was. Of course, that was how to deal with foreigners in their own country in order to maintain British rule. The training film was hilarious with the nods unfurling a banner in front of "rioting" Gurkhas in civvies telling them to disperse before opening fire. Quality!

[VinnieK]

They then went on to lose 18 in one incident at Warrenpoint. Oh sorry, you're not supposed to mention terrorist atrocities ...

 

... 7 years later in 1979 by which time the war had escalated almost out of control - and surely partly as a result of events such as Bloody Sunday which would have caused people to become involved in armed conflict. Isn't that partly what Bloody Sunday is remembered as ... like a point of no return ?

 

And lets not forget that Bloody Sunday wasn't a one off - the Ballymurphy Massacre in 1971, a few controversial killings during the Fall's curfew... by the time they left the Army was responsible for around 160 civilian deaths (over half the deaths for which the Army were responsible), 7 of their own number, 1 member of the Ulster Defence Regiment, and a couple of RUC officers. It of course pales compared with the toll of the paramilitaries, but they are sobering figures none the less.

 

I would agree that the Loyalists did their share – there were times they had to

 

A typically flippant and ill-thought out assessment from Rog (yeah, big surprise). I presume that by 'did their share' you mean that by the end of The Troubles the Loyalist factions had overtaken the PIRA in the number of people they killed. Additionally, a large majority of the Loyalist killings were nakedly sectarian in nature. Although the IRA were also responsible for a vast number of atrocities, by and large the Loyalists' aims were no more sophisticated than killing the first Catholic they could get their hands on and did little but inflame the situation further and make the conflict even more brutal (on both sides) than it already was. The Loyalists didn't have any demands because they didn't really have any aims more sophisticated than "NO!" and were far less political than their republican counterparts (despite the attempts of some within the movement to rectify that).

[alph3]

.........even the cooperation that the Irish had with the Germans during both world wars.......

 

Don't see what the world wars have to do with this discussion! Would you be trying to insinuate that the Irish are nazis?

 

As for Paisley, he may have conducted himself in a more reasonable manner behind closed doors, but to the nationalist community he came across as a self important, stubborn, bigot. Just saying, that's how he came across!

[VinnieK]

As for Paisley, he may have conducted himself in a more reasonable manner behind closed doors, but to the nationalist community he came across as a self important, stubborn, bigot. Just saying, that's how he came across!

 

By all accounts Paisley was despised or at least held in contempt by the Loyalist paramilitaries as well. Many of them could see only too clearly that Paisley was one of the 'superprods', i.e. nothing more than an idle, self important chancer who spouted nothing but hatred and hot air, much like our adorable forum fool Rog.

[Freggyragh]

Rog, Eire is 'Ireland' in Irish ('Ire' = 'Eire'). Northern Ireland is geographically part of Ireland, in political terms it is in a union with Britain, but not geographically part of it. The majority of people in Derry are not in favour of this union. The partition of Ireland was gerrymandered to ensure a unionist majority in the six counties, Derry was included for a number of cynical reasons, but not because of the wishes of the inhabitants. Ian Paisley is an Irishman, and not only admits it, but insists on it. The term UK is short for 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' not 'Britain'. If someone tells you they are working in 'Britain' then they are in either England, Scotland or Wales, no one but you would think that they might be in Ireland. Shinola was a famous American brand of wax shoe polish. Shit is what you are full of.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I thought it was Tyrone and Fermanagh that were the counties that were contested, i.e. as to whether they should be included or not in a future Northern Ireland, prior to its creation. Need to read up on this stuff again, years since I read into Northern Ireland.

[Mazza]

Re the partition and how it was decided - watch Puckoon - prob how it happened

[Max Power]

'Probably'

 

Where was he? At the front of the demonstration with a sub machine gun?

 

I really would have liked the slaughter to have been justified, I'd have felt a lot better about the country I live in, it wasn't, they released the dogs of war on a crowd of mostly innocent demonstrators and that is murder! I say mostly innocent to allow for the fact that there was 'probably' a gunman somewhere who was never found. I agree that this and any other gunman present must share responsibility, but they need to be proven to have been there. No Para's were shot during the slaughter!

 

A civil rights march with hundreds of troops deployed and the chance of a serious riot and you don't think the likes of McGuiness would be there??? Jeeeze!!!

 

I sincerely hope that you have a truly wonderful life on whichever planet it is that you inhabit. I'll keep you informed about how things are here on earth via this forum if you like...

 

I never said McGuiness wasn't there? The report says he was and probably armed with a sub machine gun, but no evidence of him firing it. He wasn't shot dead, just a lot of unarmed people on a civil rights march.

 

My argument is that the Parachute Regiment are hardened battle trained killers (not a criticism, just fact) The British Government should never have deployed them against a human rights march! Therefore the govenment is totally responsible, not the individual soldiers. If they prosecute the para's they should also prosecute McGuiness and Adams!

 

I don't need you to sarcastically inform me of anything. You know nothing of me nor I of you, except that you served in N.I.

All I will say is that I know more than you think and have my own connection with Northern Ireland.

[P.K.]

I never said McGuiness wasn't there? The report says he was and probably armed with a sub machine gun, but no evidence of him firing it. He wasn't shot dead, just a lot of unarmed people on a civil rights march.

 

My argument is that the Parachute Regiment are hardened battle trained killers (not a criticism, just fact) The British Government should never have deployed them against a human rights march! Therefore the govenment is totally responsible, not the individual soldiers. If they prosecute the para's they should also prosecute McGuiness and Adams!

 

I don't need you to sarcastically inform me of anything. You know nothing of me nor I of you, except that you served in N.I.

All I will say is that I know more than you think and have my own connection with Northern Ireland.

In which battle would that be?

 

Previously to NI the last action seen by the Parachute Regiment was in Suez in 1956 and a skirmish in Malaya in 1965. A bit short of battles then. BTW, all planks are trained to be "killers" - nice emotive word that, good choice. IIRC they were in a blocking position, the march passed by them leaving behind rock-throwing scum trying to hurt soldiers as much as they could. So they weren't "deployed against a human rights march" but were there to keep it on track. A task they had actually completed when it all kicked off.

[acorn]

 

You really are beginning to sound like Rog when someone criticises Israel.

Face it, the British government and the army fucked up. They should never have sent the paras to do a policing job.

 

By then it wasn't a "policing" job which is why we were there in the first place! The RUC were failing to react and the whole lot was slipping into anarchy.

 

 

For some reason that Sunday, one of them fired at a potential gunman who in all probability did fire a shot, what then happened was only what would be expected of such a unit, some other idiot also fired back whilst shouting something and the rest took this as the order to shoot, being the gung ho unit the para was they fired at anything they thought may have been holding a weapon, the rest is history. If anyone should be prosecuted then it should be the idiots that put such a volotile unit in what could only be described as the main potential flashpoint area of this march.

 

Pretty much my understanding as well. The more "gung-ho" the unit the firmer the discipline has to be. Discipline breeds self-discipline which is the backbone of the army. It clearly went awol on the Sunday in question. But planks are just people after all which is easily forgotten. They then went on to lose 18 in one incident at Warrenpoint. Oh sorry, you're not supposed to mention terrorist atrocities are you...

 

 

I've encountered quite a few English squaddies over the years. They were all thick as pig shit and that's a denigration of pig shit.

[Terse]

On the night of 7th May 1966 an Ulster Volunteer Force gang decided to target a Catholic-owned pub just off the Shankill Road. Shortly before eleven they threw a petrol bomb through what they thought was the pub window.

They had the wrong address; the bomb actually landed in the house next door which was rented by Mrs Matilda Gould, a frail 77-year-old widow. As the house went up in flames, Mrs Gould was still struggling to get out of bed.. Seven weeks later she died of her burns.

Her death, the first of what came to be known as the 'Troubles,' was both an appalling crime and a tragic accident. Her killers were Protestants, not Catholics; and in a hideous irony they had murdered one of their own, because Mrs Gould was a Protestant herself.

[VinnieK]

they were in a blocking position, the march passed by them leaving behind rock-throwing scum trying to hurt soldiers as much as they could. So they weren't "deployed against a human rights march" but were there to keep it on track. A task they had actually completed when it all kicked off.

 

Another distortion. The Paras were employed, alongside units of other regiments specifically to block the march and prevent its entry into Derry city centre. They were also deployed in order to spearhead what Ford hoped to be a "massive" arrest operation in bogside coinciding with the Civil Rights march, more or less setting the stage for a serious confrontation in which marchers would invariably be caught up in.

 

,

[P.K.]

I've encountered quite a few English squaddies over the years. They were all thick as pig shit and that's a denigration of pig shit.

 

You attract thickos because they know you can't make a fool out of them...

[Gladys]

PK - you and anyone else who chose to serve in Ireland was part of the same war as the people whose country you were fighting against.* You would be as much a victim as them in that sense. And no doubt you had few choices other than Ireland or the dole at 16. But you don't have any extra special right to a point of view.

 

Wrong. Experience ages a man don't you know. And you can't go on active service until you are 18. You need that extra maturity to deal with the situation.

Pardon me, but how does being 18 improve your judgement over a 17 year old? Also, the ostensible reason for troops was to protect the catholics, but the real reason was to support the RUC who had the most dreadful reputation in Northern Ireland; they were considered as protestant bully boys.

 

I could argue this one until the cows come home because it was the last excursion of the British imperialist viewpoint; that may be tush tushed by many on here, but really the troops went in thinking a 6 month sojourn and the whole situation would be resolved. History now tells us that that was not right, there were too many issues on both sides, to the extent now that we have had 'peace' in Northern Ireland for 10 years but still the wounds fester, hence this report.

 

I could also give you examples of the bigotry that existed in NI just before the troubles and how they exemplified what gave rise to the troubles. (By 'troubles' I mean the second round). I can also recite anecdotes of the corruption that fed the troubles because the troubles were good business, if you were that way inclined.

 

All in all, Northern Ireland from 1960 something to 1990 something was a shambolic feeding pit for various vested interests. All the Saville Report has done has been to reveal these frailties and it does have to be viewed in the context of the social and political environment of the time.

 

I also had the quite shocking revelation when I was a young teenager in the 1970's to be shown what a rubber bullet actually was. We heard frequently on the TV about rubber bullets being shot into the crowds and the natural assumption was that they were regular bullets, but made out of (bouncy?) rubber. No, these were missiles about eight inches long and made of hard, black rubber. Not intended to injure? I don't think so.

 

It ain't a clear picture and never will be, sadly.

[P.K.]

Pardon me, but how does being 18 improve your judgement over a 17 year old? Also, the ostensible reason for troops was to protect the catholics, but the real reason was to support the RUC who had the most dreadful reputation in Northern Ireland; they were considered as protestant bully boys.

 

So tell me Galdys (adopts best bedside manner) exactly when was your sense of humour surgically removed?

 

 

I also had the quite shocking revelation when I was a young teenager in the 1970's to be shown what a rubber bullet actually was. We heard frequently on the TV about rubber bullets being shot into the crowds and the natural assumption was that they were regular bullets, but made out of (bouncy?) rubber. No, these were missiles about eight inches long and made of hard, black rubber. Not intended to injure? I don't think so.

 

Not "rubber bullets" but "baton rounds". Originally of hard rubber then of plastic. Being hit by one was akin to being thumped by a cricket ball bowled by either Thompson or Lillee i.e. it doubled you over. Lethal? From short range to the head or heart then yes - just like a cricket ball. If the orifices noticed we were firing at head height they would call us up for it (what a joke when the bog-trotters are there to draw us out for a sniper target) so we learned to aim low as proscribed so it bounced in at head level. Believe it or not the trotters had been dosed with so much CS they were developing a bloody immunity to it so we needed something! Of course lethal force was always an available option so they were lucky we had a non-lethal (mostly) alternative to start with...