Saville Report Released

[Gladys]

Well, PK I had my sense of humour surgically removed when I started reading this thread. I don't find any humour in this.

 

As for the rubber bullet argument, I have seen one, in fact one was in the possession of my family; don't know what happened to it, lost in the mists of time. It was a rubber bullet, not a baton round. If it was lobbed by a forceful arm it would do damage, let alone being launched through a high velocity whatever.

 

Being half a bog-trotter, I find your comments offensive and reinforcing of the Saville Report findings, that most of the soldiery were ignorant buffoons, only acting on orders.

 

I have no great affinity to Ireland (it was where I was born, of one Southern Irish parent and the other Manx and spent the first few years of my life there, but we moved here because of the cauldron that my father, particularly, could see stewing). He was right and I now consider myself as Manx as anyone born here, as he did. But my lasting memory from him on the matter of the Irish problem was staunchly nationalistic, but not catholic.

 

There you have the conundrum that rubber bullets will never solve and the British Government never, actually, understood. Sorry PK, far too bright are the Irish.

[Rog]

Rog, Eire is 'Ireland' in Irish ('Ire' = 'Eire'). Northern Ireland is geographically part of Ireland, in political terms it is in a union with Britain, but not geographically part of it. The majority of people in Derry are not in favour of this union. The partition of Ireland was gerrymandered to ensure a unionist majority in the six counties, Derry was included for a number of cynical reasons, but not because of the wishes of the inhabitants. Ian Paisley is an Irishman, and not only admits it, but insists on it. The term UK is short for 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' not 'Britain'. If someone tells you they are working in 'Britain' then they are in either England, Scotland or Wales, no one but you would think that they might be in Ireland. Shinola was a famous American brand of wax shoe polish. Shit is what you are full of.

 

France is part of the same land mass as China, does that mean either should claim the other?

[Rog]

.........even the cooperation that the Irish had with the Germans during both world wars.......

 

Don't see what the world wars have to do with this discussion! Would you be trying to insinuate that the Irish are nazis?

 

As for Paisley, he may have conducted himself in a more reasonable manner behind closed doors, but to the nationalist community he came across as a self important, stubborn, bigot. Just saying, that's how he came across!

 

The ULSTER nationalist movement, and in Ulster that's the nation that matters saw him as a ferocious defender of both faith and country. As for the Irish and WW1 and WW2, not Nazis, but enemies of the UK.

[Rog]

 

 

I've encountered quite a few English squaddies over the years. They were all thick as pig shit and that's a denigration of pig shit.

 

Those same “Thick as pig shit” squaddies are the same squaddies who lay their lives on the line, often resulting in them being killed or terribly mutilated in body and mind, to protect their country and as things presently stand also protect YOU, YOUR family, and YOUR country.

 

Maybe you would feel better if the UK decided that those “thick as pig shit” squaddies stopped protecting YOU and your friends and families.

 

Judging by the behaviour of successive Manx governments over the last 40 years it would be an entirely proper course of action to take.

[P.K.]

Being half a bog-trotter, I find your comments offensive and reinforcing of the Saville Report findings, that most of the soldiery were ignorant buffoons, only acting on orders.

 

Alas and alack if only you were right and they only acted on orders. Unfortunately, as we all know, you're wrong. The main causes of Bloody Sunday were the building of resentment at being deluged in shit, having rocks thrown at you and the occasional bullet from the bog-trotters which boiled over in a complete breakdown of discipline and essentially revenge via lethal force. Shameful for the British Army.

[pongo]

As for the Irish and WW1 and WW2, not Nazis, but enemies of the UK.

 

Hundreds of thousands of Irish men including nationalists fought in British regiments and squadrons during during both WW1 and WW2. There was no conscription, all of them were volunteers.

[jimbms]

I've encountered quite a few English squaddies over the years. They were all thick as pig shit and that's a denigration of pig shit.

I take it that statement includes my old 5 man det, between the 5 of us there are seven degrees, 1 phd, 8 HNC's, professions are Doctor, Senior police officer, 2 Engineers and a high risk assesment consultant, all thick as pig shit are we?

 

As for Paisley, he was a loud mouthed biggot, all he ever did was stir up hatred and give credit to sociopathic thugs like Johnathan Adair.

many people falsly believe all the troubles at that time was mainly sectarian and to do with independance, wrong, in many instances both sides co-operated by dividing areas up so they could each have a fair share of the drug trade and protection rackets they operated, those times made millionaires of 17 people from both sides on the backs of these criminal activities. I was at that time lucky to be privy to a lot of background information about what was going on and the only losers where the people of Ulster on both sides. Members of the old IRA in the south often sent messages through to distance themselves from what was once stated as "The shameful criminal activity of so called republicans who we wish to have no association with". Although at the time the government of Eire openly supported the unity of Ireland in private thier stance was they would never enter into talks until the criminal activities (drugs, extortion and armed robbery) of both sides ceased and the leaders of such removed.

 

During several tours there I met many very nice decent people on both sides so I think it is out of order to refer to them all as the same. This incident in the report is one of many by both sides and is in fact I think a token whitewash of the whole times of the troubles by both sides. name calling of all sides is doing nothing to close the past, the report is made and now that should be the end of it and let all sides draw a line under those troubled times and get on with the future without hatred.

[Terse]

In 1965 Derry/Londonderry had a population of 36,000 Catholics and 18,000 Protestants. Thanks to a restrictive franchise, only 14,000 Ctholics and 9,000 Protestants were entitled to vote in local elections.

Although that still left a Ctholic majority, thanks to some blatant gerrymandering, the council was controlled by the Unionists..

As a result, 145 of Derry/Londonderry Corporation's 177 workers were Protestant and, while almost every Protestant family had their own home, there were some 2,000 Catholics on the housing waiting list.

 

That was the kind of thing the march was about.

[Freggyragh]

Plus - only rate payers were entitled to vote for the Northern Ireland Parliament, and they were entitled to multiple votes. This meant that unionist parties had a stranglehold on Northern Ireland politics. Although reforms were introduced, Stormont was abolished a few weeks after Bloody Sunday, so that parliament never actually managed a one man, one vote general election.

[Freggyragh]

.........even the cooperation that the Irish had with the Germans during both world wars.......

 

Don't see what the world wars have to do with this discussion! Would you be trying to insinuate that the Irish are nazis?

 

As for Paisley, he may have conducted himself in a more reasonable manner behind closed doors, but to the nationalist community he came across as a self important, stubborn, bigot. Just saying, that's how he came across!

 

The ULSTER nationalist movement, and in Ulster that's the nation that matters saw him as a ferocious defender of both faith and country. As for the Irish and WW1 and WW2, not Nazis, but enemies of the UK.

 

Surely, by your own definition, you must mean the British nationalist movement? The current leader isn't Paisley, its Griffin.

 

By the way, Ulster (a corruption of the Irish name for the province - 'Ulaidh') consists of nine counties, three in the Republic, six in Northern Ireland (none in Britain - as explained previously, Britain is the big island to the East). The name of each and every county is in Irish (with the exception of the daft 'London' prefix some people like to add to Derry). The unionist share of the vote in Northern Ireland is around 54%. The unionist share of the vote in the three Ulster counties in the Republic is about 0%. Ulster is not a nation, it is a divided province. Ian Paisley's country is the UK, his faith is Christianity - he has diminished both.

[acorn]

I've encountered quite a few English squaddies over the years. They were all thick as pig shit and that's a denigration of pig shit.

I take it that statement includes my old 5 man det, between the 5 of us there are seven degrees, 1 phd, 8 HNC's, professions are Doctor, Senior police officer, 2 Engineers and a high risk assesment consultant, all thick as pig shit are we?

 

 

 

 

Not quite sure what you're on about, I don't know your family from Adam, so how can I judge? You sound like a self satisfied lot though, if you're anything to go by. English are you? Just an observation based on your generally stated attitude and opinions, gives me the impression that you most likely are English. Does that matter? Should it matter? No, not at all but sadly the English do tend to have a habit of failing to see that there is a difference between themselves and other nations occupying these islands we all call home. To be honest it's my belief that their (the English) failure to grasp the subtleties of the difference between our respective nations and traditions is innocent,naive and without malice, most English, like the rest of us, are decent people. Nonetheless there'd be a lot more good will towards the English in general if more of them would realize that we don't all subscribe to 'God Save the Queen' and English 'tradition' and are quite entitled to retain such an opinion.

 

As this thread is full of biased generalisations, I may as well stick to mine. Yes, in my experience, most run of the mill squaddies and lance jacks are thick as pig shit.

[jimbms]

I've encountered quite a few English squaddies over the years. They were all thick as pig shit and that's a denigration of pig shit.

I take it that statement includes my old 5 man det, between the 5 of us there are seven degrees, 1 phd, 8 HNC's, professions are Doctor, Senior police officer, 2 Engineers and a high risk assesment consultant, all thick as pig shit are we?

 

 

 

 

Not quite sure what you're on about, I don't know your family from Adam, so how can I judge? You sound like a self satisfied lot though, if you're anything to go by. English are you? Just an observation based on your generally stated attitude and opinions, gives me the impression that you most likely are English. Does that matter? Should it matter? No, not at all but sadly the English do tend to have a habit of failing to see that there is a difference between themselves and other nations occupying these islands we all call home. To be honest it's my belief that their (the English) failure to grasp the subtleties of the difference between our respective nations and traditions is innocent,naive and without malice, most English, like the rest of us, are decent people. Nonetheless there'd be a lot more good will towards the English in general if more of them would realize that we don't all subscribe to 'God Save the Queen' and English 'tradition' and are quite entitled to retain such an opinion.

 

As this thread is full of biased generalisations, I may as well stick to mine. Yes, in my experience, most run of the mill squaddies and lance jacks are thick as pig shit.

I never mentioned my family, where on earth did you get that idea from, a det is a small detatchment in a military unit, nor did I even mention english attitudes, I was commenting on your stupid generalisation that all squaddies are thick, on the god save the queen bit, I couldn't give a shit about the queen or england, I joined up because it was the easiest way to continue my education and also get paid because at that time it would have been impossible for my parents to afford to send me to uni. It seems not only squaddies are as thick as pig shit but also the ones who deam it fair game to generalise and insult them all.

[Evil Goblin]

"As for Paisley, he was a loud mouthed biggot, all he ever did was stir up hatred and give credit to sociopathic thugs like Johnathan Adair."

 

And yet, from what I've heard over the years, he was a brilliant Constituency MP, irrespective of the religious tendencies of the people involved.

[manshimajin]

IMO this thread demonstrates how skin deep bigotry is in some people on all sides of the 'divide'. Thank goodness that 'bigot' Paisley and that 'terrorist' McGuinness found a way to work together (and enjoy each others company). Maybe there is a lesson in that - the world moves on - getting locked in the past is unproductive and simply maintains hatred of one another.

[MilitantDogOwner]

IMO this thread demonstrates how skin deep bigotry is in some people on all sides of the 'divide'. Thank goodness that 'bigot' Paisley and that 'terrorist' McGuinness found a way to work together (and enjoy each others company). Maybe there is a lesson in that - the world moves on - getting locked in the past is unproductive and simply maintains hatred of one another.

 

Yes thankfully the "Nationalist" terrorists and the "Loyalist" terrorists are getting on.

 

Oh did someone forget to tell the rest of the terrorists.

 

You know, the ones still setting off car bombs and shooting policemen/servicemen.

 

Car Bombings:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/feb/23/car-bomb-newry-northern-ireland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8638902.stm

 

Shootings:

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/09/northern.ireland.violence/

 

 

Peace. Not worth the paper it is written on.