Douglas Under Siege, Lock Your Doors, Do Not Answer Them

[ian rush]

I've not yet got round to printing a load of my own leaflets promoting the virtues of drinking, smoking, gambling, general fecklessness and self-abuse to hand out when people like this call round.

[Lao]

Flagellation.

The action is more important than being pedantic and getting the spelling right.

 

These god bothers even screw up a perfectly god flagellation session Jimbms, they do SELF-flagellation, usually in response to feeling guilty about their sexual desires.

 

What a waste!

[Frances]

There is no official.

The Nicene creed of 325 AD is usually considered the defining document (Mormonism fails on this - as does Unitarianism) - even allowing for slight difference in the Greek and Latin (see for example Wikipedia which looks quite a good article) - accepted by all Christian Churches from that date.

[DjDan]

There is no official.

The Nicene creed of 325 AD is usually considered the defining document (Mormonism fails on this - as does Unitarianism) - even allowing for slight difference in the Greek and Latin (see for example Wikipedia which looks quite a good article) - accepted by all Christian Churches from that date.

 

That said, the Nicene Creed is not what defines a "christian". It merely defines a specific code of doctrine.

 

A Christian is a follower of Christ. A disciple.

 

The Nicene creed defines who Christ is - to those who established the Creed. Of course, not everyone else accepts the Nicene Creed's interpretation

[Lao]

There is no official.

The Nicene creed of 325 AD is usually considered the defining document (Mormonism fails on this - as does Unitarianism) - even allowing for slight difference in the Greek and Latin (see for example Wikipedia which looks quite a good article) - accepted by all Christian Churches from that date.

 

That said, the Nicene Creed is not what defines a "christian". It merely defines a specific code of doctrine.

 

A Christian is a follower of Christ. A disciple.

 

The Nicene creed defines who Christ is - to those who established the Creed. Of course, not everyone else accepts the Nicene Creed's interpretation

 

But how are outsiders like us ever going to know who to speak to should we need to if you 'christians' cant agree on a code of practices?

 

perhaps you should all fight a war, it is clear that the victor would be the ones that god favoured most, proving the victors doctrine to be the correct version.

[Mr. Sausages]

On the subject of being a Christian, from another thread:

Perhaps I should add here, that as a Christian in the full meaning of the word (which simply means 'one who believes in Christ'..)

 

Obviously, from the definition given by DjDan, all Christians must believe "in" Christ in the same way.

 

But there must be more to being a Christian that "simply believing in Christ". I'm not a Christian, yet I believe he existed, just as I believe Chris Evans, wheelie bins, chicken liver pate, and dinosaurs exist[ed]. So what does believing "in" Christ actually mean?

[DjDan]

and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Acts 11:26

 

Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”

Acts 26:28

 

However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

1 Peter 4:16

 

Christian's in the new testament were those who followed Christ (disciples). They believed he was the Son of God. They lived his teachings.

 

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

 

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

 

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

 

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona..

Matthew 16:13-17

 

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:4

 

 

Principally, a Christian is one who believes that Christ is the Son of God, and he saved us through his Grace.

 

We believe that. We are Christian. What we don't believe is that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are the same person.. in other words, the "Trinity". We are not alone in this. Many Pentecostal churches also teach against the Trinity. As do Jehovah's Witnesses etc. I should add that not all other churches say that we are not Christian's.

[Evil Goblin]

So what does believing "in" Christ actually mean?

See 1 Corinthians 15 vv 3-5 for a statement of what a true Christian must believe.

[Chinahand]

The Sermon on the Mount seems to have a huge caveat in it, which as far as I can see makes it impossible for any particular sect to claim to know they are trully following the Lord's will and so will be saved.

 

Matthew 7:21-23

 

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

The people to whom Jesus says "I never knew you" were clearly expecting him to be a bit more welcoming! Only the likes of Spook would have the arrogance to insist they firmly know these verses don't apply to them and can be explained away. Anyone who was humble would acknowledge the doubt and be penitent within that.

 

Obviously as an outsider, this just seems like a game of "my invisible friend is better than your invisible friend" - seriously people look around you are you really just that lucky that you were born into, or stumpled upon, the right cult while all the others are so wrong.

 

isn't a particularly good video - its been made by an athieist, and I feel its disengenuous as the person making it doesn't want the viewers of it to actually become Christians, he's trying to debunk religion, but even so it does have a certain impact showing how Paul has come to trump Christ.

 

 

says something similar!

 

 

Jains are far more dedicated to their religion and some do live lives of poverty and extreme aeseticism - Christians just tend to ignore it, but then again Jains didn't have Paul to trump Christ's words!

 

Or did Christ have a twin brother who had a wholly different agenda ;-)

[Chinahand]

DjDan, serious question - are all Christians saved then? No matter what the denomination and any subsidiary beliefs.

 

The bible has pretty strong caveats to the claim that only faith is required to be saved, heck if we tried a bit I'm sure we could get some believers in predestination to pitch up, and we can quote mutually contradictory bible verses at each other for days showing how more than just faith is, or is not, required (see the videos!).

 

As ever all you have is faith in your position - zero evidence. So why do you think other believers so disagree with you and feel they are being guided by God to a totally different set of beliefs. Spook seems to say God deliberately makes it difficult for people to weed out those not worthy - do you agree with him?

 

My point of view if he was like that, it wouldn't be very nice, but then again neither is the idea of eternal torture for finite crimes and redemtion via the blood sacrifice of another.

[Evil Goblin]

China - there must be some Gnostics around to wave the predestination flag.

 

Spook - how would you answer a Gnostic who avers that if you have within you one of the divine sparks you are destined to be saved (eventually). Otherwise, its oblivion, no matter how good you might have been in this life.

[DjDan]

DjDan, serious question - are all Christians saved then? No matter what the denomination and any subsidiary beliefs.

 

You are asking a very deep question there, and to give a brief answer doesn't give it justice. But I'm not willing to give a lengthy answer.... so brief it is then!

 

First up, you'd have to look at what it means to be "saved". That's where the question becomes very hard to answer, and this is where it depends on what denomination of Christianity the individual follows.. because the doctrines vary. In my own view, does being 'saved' mean returning to Heaven? no.

 

When we were born, we left our heavenly home and entered mortality on earth. This life and earthly experience gave two major problems which prevented us from returning to live with God our Father. 1) Physical death (the loss of a physical body) 2) Spiritual death (sin - which makes us 'unclean' and no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven).

 

Jesus Christ's purpose was prepared in hindsight, knowing that these two problems needed to be overcome. He lived and died to 1) Bring about the resurrection (uniting of our spirits with a physical body again after mortal death) 2) Take upon himself the sins of the world. In short, he overcame death and made it possible for all mankind to live again with a physical body (which would thereafter be immortal) and he made it possible to overcome our sins, through him... so conquering spiritual death also.

 

He fulfilled his purpose. In effect, he has opened the gateway to 'heaven' and made it possible to return. What do we need to do to walk through this gateway? - believe. This is Faith. Every man is saved by Christ and by having faith in his name. This is where you hear the claims... "if you believe, you are saved!". While true, not all denominations agree on what it means to actually 'be saved'. Some say that means you are guaranteed entry to Heaven. I disagree. This notion claims that all you need to do is have faith, call on the name of the Lord... and nothing more. This is where the scripture you quoted comes in:

 

21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? 23 Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

 

Calling on the name of the Lord does not mean that yo are automatically guaranteed a place in Heaven. Faith alone is not sufficient. That said, I do not believe that being saved means 'entry to Heaven'.

 

When Jesus overcame Spiritual and Physical death for us all... we were saved. Every man is saved by Grace. Jesus has done everything for us. He only expects us to accept his work and follow him through the gate. But there is one other part lacking here.. our works.

 

As it is written "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" no, "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead". James continued "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder. ..As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

 

Our "deeds" (works / actions) are also important. After all, there is also a judgement to face. We will be judged on what we have done with our life, not only on account of if we believed in Christ - which some people seem to think is the only question!

 

So, going back to your question...

 

Are all Christians saved then? Yes. Through Christ and his Grace all mankind is saved.

 

That does not however mean that entry to heaven is guaranteed. Exactly where we end up depends on the deeds of our life. That is where the issue of how we live our life is important.

[ans]

Good job you kept it brief.

[DjDan]

Good job you kept it brief.

 

aye, a lengthy reply would just get too complicated

[ans]

The only complication would be extra spins on my mouse wheel to skip past the whole thing.