Pragmatopian Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 To clarify the law on this matter, if you're under 10 you technically can't commit a crime, and from 10 onwards you can. Some crimes require a 'specific intent' e.g. murder requires a killing to take place with 'malice aforethought'. This test is entirely subjective, so it will depend on the child understanding the consequences of their actions and that what they are doing is wrong. Clearly in this case, the boy has been sentenced as an adult so obviously met the test. Return to capital punishment would be a retrograde step. There are bad and misguided people in the world who do bad things and there always will be. A desire for revenge is perfectly normal, but in acting upon it, we only demean ourselves, and if the revenge is state sanctioned (or even state controlled) then that makes it so much worse, sending the message that killing is ok - TV and movies are already doing that effectively enough, thank you very much! Loss of liberty is penalty enough. I blame the tabloids that this issue is even debated anymore. They use facile logic and lurid, sensationalised accounts dressed up as 'news' to appeal to the baser instincts of the public and sell more papers. I'm all for a free press, but a free press that acts responsibly - not one that recklessly engenders fear and hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollandaise Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Hold on while I remove my eyeballs from the top of my forehead. Ah, that's better. Sorry about that but I was just so f***ing astonished by some of the previous comments on this thread that I couldn't type for a few minutes there. First, ans' staggeringly insensitive post about men being more at risk than women because there are more 'reported' assaults on men than on women - no stats to back this up, I notice, this being another of ans' sweeping generalisations designed to make everyone tug their forelock in awed respect - and then Ant's jaw-dropping comments about poor unmarried people being advised by the government not to have any kids because, hell, they're gonna go bad and there's no way to stop them except perhaps by imposing 'breeding licences' - oh no, actually, it's okay, Ant did admit that might be going too far and perhaps sounds a bit Nazi-like too. Like locking them up as soon as they show signs of anti-social behaviour - can't remember who said that, maybe Rip, but please ... listen to yourselves! Let's slow down here. 14 year old boy stabs pizza dude. Goes to prison for a long time. Good call, I think. There are always going to be raving psychotics like him about. It's not always possible to second-guess what some of them will do, even with a history of violence. Look at the 'ordinary' man who gunned down 8 members of his church yesterday in Wisconsin. It's appalling, it's lamentable, but there's no need to put the blame on parents who don't earn more than 20 grand a year or go completely fascist and say, lock the sick b*stards up as soon as they start shoving each other in kindergarten. All things in moderation, that's what I say. So let's not assume we can no longer nip round for a 14inch Marguerita without risking a spatula through the heart, yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripsaw Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 3 names mentioned, Ans, Ant and Rip. All three examples quoted totally missed the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 First, ans' staggeringly insensitive post about men being more at risk than women because there are more 'reported' assaults on men than on women - no stats to back this up, Seeing as it bothers you so much, can I suggest some reading material sweetie? It's very difficult to be senstive or otherwise when you're simply posting a statistic. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1004.pdf I've quoted one of the important parts below if for some reason you're incapable/inept and can't read PDFs. (Section 5.1) Young men aged 16-24 were most at risk of being a victim of violent crime in 2003/4 Unfortunately, there are no published statistics for the Isle of Man that I can see. I think it's reasonably safe to assume that the trend would equate with this Island and seeing as there appears to be no evidence to counteract my assumption, you're more than welcome to contact the UK Home Office and accuse them of being 'staggeringly insensitive' As Homer Simpson would say, you can prove anything with facts. Other than your ridiculous troll (this obesssion with me must stop you know), I agree with everything else you say. I've mentioned this before on a similar subject I think, but when I was a teenager, I had my scrapes and run ins with the authorities, yet I had two great parents that supported me, did everything they could for me and sacrificed a lot to give me the best upbringing they could. Didn't stop me being a little thug. Granted, I never got as far as murder though. Parenting can have an influence on children, but to universally generalise and say all parents are responsible for their kids actions is just wrong. There are thousands of parents out there with children in prison who gave them the best upbringing they were capable of. It's just sad that there will always be 'bad apples' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 First, ans' staggeringly insensitive post about men being more at risk than women because there are more 'reported' assaults on men than on women - no stats to back this up, I notice, this being another of ans' sweeping generalisations designed to make everyone tug their forelock in awed respect <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe, but a fact nonetheless - Men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women. Over 5 per cent of men and just under 3 per cent of women aged 16 and over in England and Wales were the victims of some sort of violence in the twelve months prior to interview in 2002/03. Men and women aged 16 to 24 are the most at risk age group. Around 15 per cent of men and 7 per cent women of this age reporting that some sort of violence had been used against them. Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Doubleteamed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ean Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I thought this was a family forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 clearly this disgusting little scrote is the product of his "parents". Clearly? Know them do you, read anything about them then PK? The one thing that i have not seen about this incident is the parents commenting on it. The only thing i have read is that he left the dock being hugged by his crying mother. They have kept quiet, they haven't tried to say how he made a stupid mistake or say that they tried their best with him as so often happens in cases like this. Obviously the parents didn't do their job in bringing him up to be a moral citizen but to blame them for everything in the way the child turned out is not fair. Like Rip said and i have said before, the society he lived in has influenced the way he behaves. P.S. Good post Rip. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No Ean, I don't know his parents personally. But I am aware of their "parenting" efforts. So is a family with one cruelly taken from them by a disgusting little scrote with no moral values whatsoever. Here is a little challenge for you. Try and persuade someone like me that this lowlife despite his (no doubt) appalling upbringing didn't know the difference between right and wrong. Let me help you here - Stabbing someone to death for a £1 pizza is, err, WRONG!!! People who defend them just let them do it again. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Who's defending them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Who's defending them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anyone asking for "reports". Next? - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 So not anyone on here then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 What? You know that no-one on here is asking for reports? Ahhh, the Master can read the human mind. I've always suspected it you know. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 No, but I can read a thread. I was making the point that there have been a lot of posts about being "soft", "do-gooders", "excusing the criminal", yet no-one has condoned or excused this kid's act and no-one is suggesting he shouldn't be punished severely. In fact, the most liberal suggestion for his punishment has come from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 1 rape or assault on a female is too much - how many have we had in the past year ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The total of reported combined rapes and assaults is dwarfed by the number of reported assaults on men. Seems it's safer to be a girl actually. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well...actually.. To compare the rape and violation of a woman, to a slap given to some male prat that probably deserved it...is perhaps...words fail me Compare waking with a sore chin/cheek etc. To complete and utter feelings of hate, pain, humiliation, disgust....the list is endless. Of course the issue of Male Rape will balance this debate somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 No, but I can read a thread. I was making the point that there have been a lot of posts about being "soft", "do-gooders", "excusing the criminal", yet no-one has condoned or excused this kid's act and no-one is suggesting he shouldn't be punished severely. In fact, the most liberal suggestion for his punishment has come from you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only in that I do not support the death penalty because I recognise that the human condition is flawed. Now this is where the debate can really hot up. If you recognise that the human condition is flawed you can claim clemency for the likes of those who stab to death innocents whose only crime is to charge full price for a pizza after a certain £1 window is closed. Now I take a different stance. To me anyone over about 10-12 years old knows the difference between right and wrong and so such an act becomes one of a murderous intent that warrants a life sentence. Ask yourself, do you want those with no regard for human life mixing amongst you and those you care for? Lock them up. Then we are all safe from them. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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