What The Hell?

[Ean]

Try and persuade someone like me that this lowlife despite his (no doubt) appalling upbringing didn't know the difference between right and wrong.

 

I don't need or want to do that. He knew that stabbing someone was wrong, i fail to see the point where i said he thought stabbing someone was the right thing to do. If you want to debate with me on points i have raised rather than points you have made up i will debate till the cows come home, i may concede to your view, chances are i won't.

I have argued against the shouts of "off with his head" and "torture him until he learns" i have not argued for this child to be let off completely.

 

I have also argued that no-one seems to know about his family situation, yet several people on here are making massive assumptions that because he did this act his parents must be scum. How do you know his mother hasn't tried her hardest to keep him on the straight and narrow, if a kid falls in with the wrong crowd there is normally sod all a parent can do to keep them away. It's easy to stand there and argue the toss, saying his mother clearly didn't try but to actually keep a child away from a group of "bad" people is extraordinarily difficult.

[Declan]

You've kind of taken that out of context Carter.

 

It was about the relative likelihood of being attacked on the street. Not the relative emotional and physical pain.

[Bill Posters]

Return to capital punishment would be a retrograde step.

C'mon, Dr. W. - that MUST be followed by in my opinion

[Carter]

You've kind of taken that out of context Carter.

 

It was about the relative likelihood of being attacked on the street. Not the relative emotional and physical pain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, Point accepted Declan.

Perhaps the Stats. would have been better to be included in the post.

[ans]

But then I wouldn't have been able to tease someone into making themselves look like a fool. Do keep up old bean.

 

And yes, it was out of context your comment. I wasn't offering any opinion on the severity of the crime or the impact on the victim. Just, as Declan says, pointing out there is a higher chance or it happening if you're a bloke.

[P.K.]

I have also argued that no-one seems to know about his family situation, yet several people on here are making massive assumptions that because he did this act his parents must be scum. How do you know his mother hasn't tried her hardest to keep him on the straight and narrow, if a kid falls in with the wrong crowd there is normally sod all a parent can do to keep them away. It's easy to stand there and argue the toss, saying his mother clearly didn't try but to actually keep a child away from a group of "bad" people is extraordinarily difficult.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All those in the "wrong crowd" have parents too. That's the point.

 

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[Ean]

And probably all of thise in the wrong crowd would have turned out differently if they hadn't got involved with each other, that's my point. To blame the parents solely is somewhat unfair.

[P.K.]

I would agree that how they all ended up at this point is open to conjecture. However who would deny that parenting doesn't have a major effect on how the offspring turn out?

 

The parents (or lack of them) have to shoulder a large proportion of the blame for the actions of the likes of this disgusting little scrote who took an innocent life.

 

Be warned. The totally irresponsible chavettes are churning out Chardonnays and Dwaynes with no thought for actually bringing them up to be responsible citizens. Therefore the witless, feckless, workshy underclass are growing in numbers. You should prepare yourself for more pointless murders like this one. You just have to look at how it's ramping up even in the IOM to know that there's trouble ahead.

 

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[ans]

However who would deny that parenting doesn't have a major effect on how the offspring turn out?

 

It can have an effect. It's not a sole cause and not a certainty that it's a factor at all.

 

Some people are just 'bad'

[P.K.]

It can have an effect. It's not a sole cause and not a certainty that it's a factor at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So it's not certain that it's a certainty then. Who said it was?

 

I suppose I should have relied on you denying that parenting has a major effect on the offspring.

Some people are just 'bad'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are all God's creatures.

 

(Fearlessly opens the debate still wider into even more nebulous territory. Any takers?)

 

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[ans]

So it's not certain that it's a certainty then. Who said it was?

 

You did.

 

I suppose I should have relied on you denying that parenting has a major effect on the offspring.

 

I didn't deny that it can be. I'm just pointing out that it is not categorically always the case as you seem to be implying.

[Speckled Frost]

The current debate on terrorism is a good analogy here.

 

To come close to eradicating it the government would need to breach freedom.

 

Ans is right in that there are too many factors for one overall solution to meet the problems.

 

Parents, mental stability, peer pressure, neighbourhoods, abuse, racism, adverse experiences (death of a close one, etc) are all factors.

 

I'm slightly worried by Rip's sentiments which I may have misread.

But if he's talking about pre-empting a crime and dealing with a person on that basis in terms of punishment or imposed help then I can't agree.

 

Captial punishment and torture really won't solve anything other than revenge gratification and a method of cleansing.

Murder is either compulsive or there is a very good reason (in the eyes of the perpetrator) which won't be deterred by death penalty threats.

You could argue it's cheaper but what sort of an argument in the gravity of such a topic.

 

These cases make great reading but they are isolated. I'll take my chances and maintain my freedom.

 

For me, choice comes before some inert idea of safety.

Bringing in capital punishment, pre-emptive measures and other Draconian methods to stamp out rare crimes at the cost of freedom of choice and a sense of humanity is something I can't agree with.

[Ean]

You could argue it's cheaper but what sort of an argument in the gravity of such a topic.

 

I read somewhere that in America it is more expensive to put a man to death than to imprison him for life because of the number of appeals they can make and the cost of trials etc. Can't actually find the figures now but i will look.

[P.K.]

I suppose I should have relied on you denying that parenting has a major effect on the offspring.

 

I didn't deny that it can be. I'm just pointing out that it is not categorically always the case as you seem to be implying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Putting a figure on cause/effect parenting/killing an innocent is not going to be particularly easy.

 

However an implication is not quite the same as a certainty.

 

(Semantics are such a waste of space - bring it on! IMHO of course.)

[Ripsaw]

I'm slightly worried by Rip's sentiments which I may have misread.

But if he's talking about pre-empting a crime and dealing with a person on that basis in terms of punishment or imposed help then I can't agree.

I'm not 100% sure which bit of my previous posts have concerned you, but No, I'm in agreement with you

Parents, mental stability, peer pressure, neighbourhoods, abuse, racism, adverse experiences (death of a close one, etc) are all factors

I think that all too often there are signs that something is wrong and the signs are ignored until it becomes a headline grabbing event.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of loving, nurturing and guiding our offspring as opposed to waiting untill the 'headline' then beating them with the proverbial big stick.

 

Those directly involved in the bringing up of young Johnny have the biggest part to play in the way he will turn out, but society as a whole has to accept some of the blame.

 

I always question myself and my abilities to bring up a six year old in the face of the world around us. I take my responsibility very seriously and often find that I try to 'mould' my child in the opposite way that the majority of society seems happy to progress.

 

I was informed by Junior's mother that upon being offered a gun to buy by a Car Boot stall holder at the weekend, my son politely replied "No thankyou, guns are bad". Believe it or not, that makes me proud.